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Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

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Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#131

Post by dhshahsndeisjwn »

MaximumYComb wrote: post #60
colechristensen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I experienced long term psychological effects from lack of proper education pacing. From the very beginning, I entered kindergarten as the only one in my class able to read. The teacher, doing her best, sent me off to read by myself in the corner as she taught the rest of the class. In the years where your brain is programmed to adapt itself to the environment it expects for the rest of life, I only ever had to do th…

I was identified in middle primary school and had to change school to attend another school that had a class for gifted children. I proceeded to take the top grades at that class. I finished primary school close to my 12th birthday, years ahead in basically every category. There was no option to continue in any program for high school so I was sent to the local high school, an impoverished school where the majority o…

> n impoverished school where the majority of the effort goes to controlling poor behaviour

I think this is the real issue, irrespective of 'gifted' status. I failed the 11+ in the UK but spent my entire teenage years bored out of my mind and in fear for my physical safety. At 16 I switched to a school where classes were less chaotic and thrived. I graduated with a high 2:1 from Cambridge, so although I'm not 'gifted' in any precocious sense, and probably wouldn't have been picked up by these programmes, I was capable of some kind of academic achievement.

The focus on one end of the bell curve who visibly suffer more than others in the middle obscures the real problem: public schools are underfunded and understaffed. There's a reason why private education provides class sizes of 10-15: At that level teachers are _able_ to respond to the individual needs of all children.

Hiving off <5% into special classes for gifted might be good for those children, but it is socially regressive and ignores the problem for those who remain in sink schools.

Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#132

Post by dhshahsndeisjwn »

C1sc0cat wrote: post #121
dgellow wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've long wondered why education isn't just a bunch of different ladders that people can crawl at their own pace. Just a guess: as far as I understood US parents are very good at lobbying schools administration, and a lot of them would hate to see that some kids are smarter or more advanced than theirs. Now regarding your ladder idea, in some cantons in Switzerland and some Bundesländer in Germany the school system…

The problem with that its in large part class based - come from a working class background or have learning disabilities you get pigeonholed into the lower tracks - with less resources. Jumping tracks is hard and before the EU intervened almost impossible.

I would agree. The testing used to stream kids is noisy at best and systematically biased at worst against kids with educated parents.

Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#133

Post by dhshahsndeisjwn »

hobofan wrote: post #104
lordnacho wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've long wondered why education isn't just a bunch of different ladders that people can crawl at their own pace. For instance my kid is starting to read about stuff they normally only introduce in high school, but there's no way he will ever be examined on it until then (he's turning 8 in a few weeks). If someone wants to learn something, luckily these says we have the likes of Khan Academy and other internet resour…

> What is the rationale for keeping everyone together, other than timetabling issues? That's exactly the issue, together with too many children per teacher. Unless you can adequately replace a teacher with digital learning solutions (still very sparse; even worse in non-english speaking countries), any increase in "own pace" would result in an increase of teacher-student time.

Or just fund public schools at the level that private schools do and have reasonable class sizes.

Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#134

Post by spugody »

colechristensen wrote: post #46
barry-cotter wrote: post #2

There is no argument against academic acceleration beyond that it increases inequality of achievement. If the school system was about education more than childcare acceleration would be the norm for bright children and we’d have 14 year olds starting their Bachelor’s level studies in every school and 20 year olds who already had doctorates in every city of any size. Instead we waste their time, to their detriment and…

I experienced long term psychological effects from lack of proper education pacing. From the very beginning, I entered kindergarten as the only one in my class able to read. The teacher, doing her best, sent me off to read by myself in the corner as she taught the rest of the class. In the years where your brain is programmed to adapt itself to the environment it expects for the rest of life, I only ever had to do th…

Similar story to me. Academically fairly gifted from an early age, testing high IQ later (I know, I know) and was recommended to be placed in an advanced school.

My parents were modest and didn't pursue this, nevertheless, everything was easy until it wasn't. The part I never learned properly was effort=reward. I was also diagnosed with ADHD and was on ritalin for several years.

Later school years were bad for me because it involved a lot of rote learning. I did not have the discipline to do this and my grades slipped back to mediocre. University was better and I did very well again. I've done moderately well in my career, top few % of earners but I am unable to break higher because I'm constantly distracted and struggling to complete mundane work tasks which prevents me from getting to the top where my ego says I belong.

I take full acknowledgement of issues, I know it is my own doing. I don't know if it is too late for me to change but I'm slowly (because even here I lack the focus) trying to learn technique to change my entire approach. I've recently started looking at the power of habit forming as a means to improve discipline. I think I could benefit from a very tightly structured day where one thing naturally leads to another. Otherwise I tend to drift in and out of tasks and end of up the web, like now.

Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#135

Post by mattlondon »

colechristensen wrote: post #46
barry-cotter wrote: post #2

There is no argument against academic acceleration beyond that it increases inequality of achievement. If the school system was about education more than childcare acceleration would be the norm for bright children and we’d have 14 year olds starting their Bachelor’s level studies in every school and 20 year olds who already had doctorates in every city of any size. Instead we waste their time, to their detriment and…

I experienced long term psychological effects from lack of proper education pacing. From the very beginning, I entered kindergarten as the only one in my class able to read. The teacher, doing her best, sent me off to read by myself in the corner as she taught the rest of the class. In the years where your brain is programmed to adapt itself to the environment it expects for the rest of life, I only ever had to do th…

> Everything was easy until it wasn't

Similar experience for me (apart from the social distancing - never an issue for me) - being told how clever I was by parents, relatives, teachers, class-mates etc from ages 5 or 6 up to early-/mid-teens. It soaks into you and you end up becoming a bit arrogant about things.

For me I had a rude-awakening during my late teens when we did our first "real" exams and I assumed that what with me being so clever, these exams that everyone had to do must be pretty simple. After all, if non-clever people had to sit the same standard exams as someone clever like me, then they must be a walk in a park, right? No need to study or revise! Everyone has been telling me I am so smart for as long as I can remember, so no need to put any effort in - my natural smarts will carry me through! Hurrah!

...the outcome was predictable - I got pretty middling grades of mostly "B"s.

For some I accept that "straight Bs" would be a great outcome, but it was more or less the first time in my life where I had to face up to the fact that I wasn't guaranteed academic success, celebration and congratulations for being so smart from everyone. Instead everyone - myself included - was slightly disappointed in my performance.

Lesson learnt.

Now I have my own kids and wondering what to do if they are smart. I heard someone say something along the lines of "never tell your kids they are smart - instead congratulate them on how well/how hard they worked on something".

Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#136

Post by _archon_ »

currymj wrote: post #130
barry-cotter wrote: post #2

There is no argument against academic acceleration beyond that it increases inequality of achievement. If the school system was about education more than childcare acceleration would be the norm for bright children and we’d have 14 year olds starting their Bachelor’s level studies in every school and 20 year olds who already had doctorates in every city of any size. Instead we waste their time, to their detriment and…

consider it from an alternative perspective — sending a 14 year old to grad school to get their PhD by 20 is putting them in a 60-hour-a-week high pressure job that causes mental breakdowns in many adults. i don’t doubt that academic acceleration has many advantages for smart kids but i do not think “getting” to give up your teenage years for a few extra years of high pressure work is one of them.

I propose that a 20 year old phd will have many options open to them, including taking an easy job and spending their own time on an interesting hobby. If a person can be educated with the information and methods to succeed, they should be better able to interact with the world. Slowing down a person with the potential to finish formal education so that they can spend more time being spoonfed isn't going to improve their chances.

Also, if one chooses a grinding slog of a job, it's better to be a 20-year-old phd. Presumably, they're getting paid well, and they can start on their early retirement fund from better positions vis a vis a generic 20 year old.

I am unconvinced by your argument.

Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#137

Post by HenryKissinger »

barry-cotter wrote: post #18
HenryKissinger wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: the general level of maturity of an individual, and in particular their emotional maturity and their social maturity, do not strongly correlate with their intellectual maturity. Someone may be advanced enough to graduate at 18 with a bachelor's degree in a technically challenging field, but lack enough self-discipline, sense of responsibilities, or basic social graces and knowledge of social codes to re…

People should not be deliberately handicapped. Forcing someone to waste years of their life is bad. School is so unlike every other social institution that it is (close to) useless as preparation for anything else. Outside school people actually care whether you do your work, and if your don’t do it there are real consequences, but the standards are completely different, depending on the workplace. Outside school if…

> Forcing someone to waste years of their life is bad.

Taking the time to develop one's personality alongside one's peers, to share the same experiences and to make bonds with them is totally not a waste of time.

> Outside school people actually care whether you do your work, and if your don’t do it there are real consequences

Not sure what schools you attended. I had good teachers, who cared if I did my work. And if I didn't I would get a bad grade. Bad grades are real consequences that can negatively affect your future.

> Outside school if you’re surrounded by assholes you can just leave unless you’re in prison.

So many workers work jobs that they don't like but can't afford not to. Unless you're ready to face unemployment, and possibly the loss of your home and homelessness, you can't always so easily leave your job. I know that this is HN, where everyone makes 6 figures in the tech industry and could leave their job in the morning and find a new one after lunch, but the reality isn't so rosy for the vast majority of workers.

Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#138

Post by throwaway98797 »

spugody wrote: post #134
colechristensen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I experienced long term psychological effects from lack of proper education pacing. From the very beginning, I entered kindergarten as the only one in my class able to read. The teacher, doing her best, sent me off to read by myself in the corner as she taught the rest of the class. In the years where your brain is programmed to adapt itself to the environment it expects for the rest of life, I only ever had to do th…

Similar story to me. Academically fairly gifted from an early age, testing high IQ later (I know, I know) and was recommended to be placed in an advanced school. My parents were modest and didn't pursue this, nevertheless, everything was easy until it wasn't. The part I never learned properly was effort=reward. I was also diagnosed with ADHD and was on ritalin for several years. Later school years were bad for me bec…

It might be your ego that’s holding you back not your inability to do mundane tasks.

Who wants leadership that’s “too good for this shit”

I feel you though, ego is the enemy, though it’s also the engine.

Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#139

Post by C1sc0cat »

dhshahsndeisjwn wrote: post #132
C1sc0cat wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that its in large part class based - come from a working class background or have learning disabilities you get pigeonholed into the lower tracks - with less resources. Jumping tracks is hard and before the EU intervened almost impossible.

I would agree. The testing used to stream kids is noisy at best and systematically biased at worst against kids with educated parents.

The other way around I think you mean

Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#140

Post by dgellow »

dhshahsndeisjwn wrote: post #132
C1sc0cat wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that its in large part class based - come from a working class background or have learning disabilities you get pigeonholed into the lower tracks - with less resources. Jumping tracks is hard and before the EU intervened almost impossible.

I would agree. The testing used to stream kids is noisy at best and systematically biased at worst against kids with educated parents.

That's fair, but I don't think that's a critic against streams. Even without stream kids still face the same issue. Kids with available and educated parents always have an advantage compared to others.
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