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Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

fs.blog

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Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#11
There's a growing rift in software between employers saying "there's a talent shortage" and a rapidly growing population of devs who feel like they're locked out due to the technical interview process.

Many of the engineers not being hired are recent bootcamp grads but there are also tons of CS majors that can't seem to "crack" the interview process.

Part of my job is helping companies "fix" their hiring and one of the ideas that I've been putting forth for years that's slowly gaining steam is developing a "technical apprentice" role. This role would be responsible for tasks that are frequently de-prioritized like documentation, testing, QA, bug fixes, note taking, etc. and would be a foot in the door for entry-level engineers. The role is designed to focus on communication and soft-skills while also giving the person a chance to prove their "grit" on the technical side. Even a few months in an apprenticeship role is generally enough for companies to "take a chance" on someone as an entry-level engineer.

This has been a great way to shift interviews away from algorithms and more towards finding people can add immense value to technical teams even without having on-the-job programming experience.

I'm curious what the HN crowd thinks about that role as a way to bridge the hiring gap.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#12
post #3

> What’s the best way to test if someone can do a particular job well? Get them to carry out tasks that are part of the job. See if they can do what they say they can do. It’s much harder for someone to lie and mislead an interviewer during actual work than during an interview. Using competency tests for a blinded interview process is also possible—interviewers could look at depersonalized test results to make unbias…

> Is this a serious problem?

You would be astonished, absolutely flabbergasted, at the number of "senior engineers" who interview well, talk great about projects, but cannot demonstrate basic programming skills (e.g., convert an integer to a string representation, or write fizzbuzz).

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#13
post #3

> What’s the best way to test if someone can do a particular job well? Get them to carry out tasks that are part of the job. See if they can do what they say they can do. It’s much harder for someone to lie and mislead an interviewer during actual work than during an interview. Using competency tests for a blinded interview process is also possible—interviewers could look at depersonalized test results to make unbias…

Competency tests have helped me get in the door.

That said, they seem to work best when they're part of an overall interview process. I think it's a mistake to look at only the highest scores and interview those people, they should only weed out the bottom scores and follow a more typical (do they fit? can they learn it?) process for the rest.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#14
A rather click-baity headline. The article doesn't claim that job interviews don't work so much as it claims that subjective job interviews are more subject to bias than structured job-interviews. I'd say that's true, but the caveat is that structured job interviews are more subject to people studying and honing skills specific to the job interview process. Grinding leetcode definitely makes you a better at solving algorithms problems on a whiteboard in 60 minutes but doesn't do much to improve working effectiveness.

I think there are 3 core trade-offs for the job interview process: logistical feasibility, consistency, and resemblance to the actual work experience.

Doing 2 rounds of coding interviews, and one round of systems design from a set list of questions with explicit rubrics is easy to implement and is very consistent. But you can leetcode your way to knowing most coding question archetypes. Systems design question archetypes are even smaller in problem space. These questions have moderate to low resemblance to the actual work experience. Sure, it can identify people who can't code or aren't experienced in systems design. But does it show how well someone takes feedback, or reviews other people's code? Not really.

One of my co-workers used to conduct 90 interviews that started with one question: "how would you build a text editor?" He didn't specify whether this text editor was WYSIWYG like Word, a web-based editor, a code editor, etc. It expanded and touched on a whole variety of questions. It could be traditional data structures, or UI design, or systems (e.g. implementing auto-saving text fields on the web). This was low consistency, since the interview was mostly unique to each candidate. It had moderate logistical feasibility since it was hard to train interviewers on these open ended questions. But I think it had better resemblance to the actual work experience, since it didn't just test coding ability. It tested thinking through the problem and what the desired end behavior for the user really was and navigating how those expectations influence implementation.

An idea of an interview process that I have is to do it asynchronously through github or another version control system. Give the candidate a task to open a PR on a mock codebase. See how they implement the task and justify their design decisions. How thoroughly the test. Respond to the PR with comments and see how the candidate responds. And next, have the candidate review another person's PR and see what they look for in a review. This potentially has even better logistical feasibility since it's not dependent on the candidate and employee being active at the same time. I think it would have the most direct resemblance to actual work experience, since it's emulating the workflow most developers actually use in their day to day work. Consistency may be difficult to achieve, but if evaluation was broken up into multiple segments for separate evaluation it may be able to be made consistent.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#15
It is true, and not that I am trying to be dishonest myself but I am not the same person while taking an interview. It's a sad that we can't be honest or humble but in this system we have to sell ourselves, fake enthusiasm for the hiring company is a must, do whatever it takes to pass the interview then think later if we take the position or not. If not, somebody else with the same capability or or less will snatch that job. Plus that interviews like tests are gameable.

In an ideal world a trial period would ensure both the employees and employers are a fit. But that could be abused as well if it becomes the norm.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#16
post #10

The first time I ever heard the expression "social filter" was from Barrack Obama. There are many things that a democracy can give to its citizens. But apparently, it seems civilization doesn't want to give up social filters. I can understand social filters when it comes to friendships, sex and intimate relationship, but for jobs, I will never understand why they exist.

> I can understand social filters when it comes to friendships, sex and intimate relationship, but for jobs, I will never understand why they exist.

Because jobs are just as social as intimate relationships, if not more so. Up to about the 2010s, the majority of marriages came from getting to know someone at work.

Even if nothing intimate does come from work, it's still people you have to see 8 hours a day for years on end. If someone is repulsive/annoying/toxic, it WILL make you miserable at work, and people are very wary of disrupting a well-oiled collective.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#17

It is true, and not that I am trying to be dishonest myself but I am not the same person while taking an interview. It's a sad that we can't be honest or humble but in this system we have to sell ourselves, fake enthusiasm for the hiring company is a must, do whatever it takes to pass the interview then think later if we take the position or not. If not, somebody else with the same capability or or less will snatch t…

How would a trial period work?

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#18
post #2

Related message for students / new-grads: Find an internship. Internship interviews tend to be much easier as the stakes are lower. If you perform well during your internship (arguably easier / more accurate indicator of success), the company will likely extend an offer. At big companies I've seen internship to offer rates exceed 30%.

My company (defense contractor) has a goal of hiring more than 50% of our interns.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#19
post #12
post #3

> What’s the best way to test if someone can do a particular job well? Get them to carry out tasks that are part of the job. See if they can do what they say they can do. It’s much harder for someone to lie and mislead an interviewer during actual work than during an interview. Using competency tests for a blinded interview process is also possible—interviewers could look at depersonalized test results to make unbias…

> Is this a serious problem? You would be astonished, absolutely flabbergasted, at the number of "senior engineers" who interview well, talk great about projects, but cannot demonstrate basic programming skills (e.g., convert an integer to a string representation, or write fizzbuzz).

How does this happen? What (apparently huge) swath of industry am I insulated from where this can take root? Is this just a bunch of wannabes after tech salaries? Or is this is a side-effect of industrial java programming, where their "job" was basically filling in boilerplate? (I am probably unfairly slandering java shops, it seems unlikely, but everything else seems even more unlikely)

It boggles my mind.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#20
post #10

The first time I ever heard the expression "social filter" was from Barrack Obama. There are many things that a democracy can give to its citizens. But apparently, it seems civilization doesn't want to give up social filters. I can understand social filters when it comes to friendships, sex and intimate relationship, but for jobs, I will never understand why they exist.

> I can understand social filters when it comes to friendships, sex and intimate relationship, but for jobs, I will never understand why they exist. Because jobs are just as social as intimate relationships, if not more so. Up to about the 2010s, the majority of marriages came from getting to know someone at work. Even if nothing intimate does come from work, it's still people you have to see 8 hours a day for years…

Aside from abusive/toxic workers, do you think some diversity (not necessarily racial but cultural as well, different age groups,etc) would do any harm?

I personally enjoy working alongside older folks who I find invaluable, they have been around for a long time and have lots of stories to share, but are not as quick to jump on a new technology bandwagon. Lots of companies seem to want to keep the young vibe and avoid hiring these folks.

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