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“Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

roelpeters.be

121–130 of 197 posts

Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#121
post #23

Some people here can't seem to separate ideas from the person who generates them, and that is sad. You can hate what a person did and still try to understand why they did it. That does not equate to support for them. It's this kind of closed-mindedness that is driving people apart all over the world.

> Some people here can't seem to separate ideas from the person who generates them Would these writings be considered famous or even worthwhile if it wasn't for this person's actions? I think the answer is quite clear.

Infamous is probably the right word. His writings aren't something that everybody owns or that's taught in school. I don't believe a majority would know the author if you asked them who wrote "Industrial Society and its Future".

I also don't believe that a majority considers it worthwhile, it's a minority that this line of thought speaks to, and I'm relatively sure that they'd find it appealing even if he hadn't ever done anything but write books.

Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#122
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don’t you say what you disagree with and provide a criticism?

Again, this isn't about the manifesto. It is about giving a platform to a terrorist. It is because they knew their manifesto would be published and read that the terrorists behind the 2011 Norway attacks or Christchurch mosque attack acted that way. And it worked as planned, providing incentives for more acts of terror. If you want to make a criticism again science and technology, please do. But I think it is inappro…

If you care about terrorism and stopping it, then you should not ignore what they’re saying. Sometimes they’re saying something important.

I don’t think this is going to encourage anyone to carry out acts of violence.

Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#123

Plenty of people have pointed out that changes to society create problems and even leave us worse off in terms of happiness or health or freedom etc. I'd recommend Jared Diamond on agriculture for a shorter, better written, non homicidal alternative: https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/the-worst-mist... But here is thing: you don't get to decide. You're whole society doesn't get to decide. You have to do wh…

> But here is thing: you don't get to decide. You're whole society doesn't get to decide. This is why we have established what is sometimes called a 'rule-based international order', so that we can have a world where might makes right doesn't apply anymore. Where the weak get protection and the strong are compelled to act morally and legally. Unfortunately, of course, the rules mostly stay on paper and the world cont…

The modern 'rule-based' international order is more of a limited correction to 'might-makes-right' than an alternative to it. It works really well to the extent that we figure out good 'rules' that actors will genuinely want to enforce. Luckily for us, many such rules are quite possible and they do generally push us towards a better state of the world.

Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#124
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, this isn't about the manifesto. It is about giving a platform to a terrorist. It is because they knew their manifesto would be published and read that the terrorists behind the 2011 Norway attacks or Christchurch mosque attack acted that way. And it worked as planned, providing incentives for more acts of terror. If you want to make a criticism again science and technology, please do. But I think it is inappro…

If you care about terrorism and stopping it, then you should not ignore what they’re saying. Sometimes they’re saying something important. I don’t think this is going to encourage anyone to carry out acts of violence.

ISIS has something important to say that I should read? My lifestyle isn't conform enough to the standards of Wahhabism?

Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#125

Most western societies have some core values that, although often under pressure, most people generally subscribe to. Eg freedom of speech, bothsidesism, etc. I wish we could add one to the list: if you commit violent acts, we will ignore what you said, no matter how much or how little sense it makes. Like, there's millions of weird extreme right manifestos out there, but the one by Anders Breivik is the only recent…

Do you actually do this? You do realize that means you need to ignore the police, military, and virtually every politician? Especially every person who has been president.

Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#126
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>He proposes that "leftists" have this belief in their own freedom, but that this freedom is a delusion. Interesting, because my pet theory is that what determines if people lean left or right is their belief in their own free will. Those that truly believe they are completely free and autonomus from society and their environment will naturally favor right wing policies, but those that believe they are largely a prod…

Doesn't really matter what you "believe" if it's demonstrably true that you're shaped by your environment.

Any reasonable definition of "you" would suggest a mind with free will (at least to a certain level of approximation).

Also, aside from any philosophical mind / matter or free will / predestination arguments, it's not just a question of what is, but what is a more adaptive belief.

Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#127
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perfect example of people thinking that the ideas they allow into their head will somehow affect the future of humanity. In a world lead by pr and marketing, we now see ourselves as extensions of this thought controlling manipulative system. It is socially responsible to evaluate your behaviour as something that will either encourage or discourage good behavior and thought in other people. I think it's an intellectua…

Not the OP - but to my mind this is missing the point. It would be totally unfair to criticise a piece of anarcho primitivist writing by saying "I'm not reading this, this is what Ted Kaczynski believed". But Kaczynski murdered people to get his ideas read - I don't want that to be a way that political ideas make it into the mainstream. If the ideas are good enough they can stand on their own two feet - plenty of not…

The entire point is that he did have to kill people to get his message out and, ooops it changed the way we thought about technological culture and our impact on the world. Your argument that "why do they not have articles about them", well they do, but they didn't get their manifesto published in a national newspaper in full. You want to live in a world of goodies and baddies go ahead.

I'm not saying that not wanting people to be blown up is uniquely capitalist. What I am saying is that people seeing the _value_ of their actions as whether they encourage or discourage good or bad behavior is very capitalist. It's also arrogant, self centred and intellectually moribund.

Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kaczynski's manifesto functions primarily as a rationalization for his violence and anger. Engaging with the text in a way that doesn't admit that fact would be like reading the Declaration of Independence as if it were a piece of Science Fiction, or reading a scientific article as if it were a love letter. You can of course proceed in that way, but it'll result in a fundamentally erroneous understanding of the meani…

> Kaczynski's manifesto functions primarily as a rationalization for his violence and anger. this isnt an argument. either the text is sound or it isnt; either the arguments are presented clearly from first principles with evidence or theyre not. the intent or state of the writer is irrevelant.

>> Kaczynski's manifesto functions primarily as a rationalization for his violence and anger.

> this isnt an argument.

No. It's an assertion. You're free to disagree. However, if that assertion is true, then there's no reason for techno-optimists to bother with his text.

Also, it is an assertion that we can reason about at least somewhat independently of the text. We can examine how the text was written, the manner in which it was disseminated, the reason for its cultural weight, etc.

> either the text is sound or it isnt

That's the point. Reading the text for the purpose of determining whether it is sound will be futile exercise and a waste of time. In the same way that reading Harry Potter as a religious text would be wrong (not morally/ethically/politically/etc. wrong per se, but rather simply and plainly wrong in the sense that a literary analysis can be incorrect).

lucideer's post addresses this directly and ultimately concludes "Overall, the manifesto is not worth reading". I would simply add the qualifier "...unless you proceed from the understanding the the author is a sick man". In other words, it's not worth reading just because you're a techno-optimist. It's perhaps worth reading if you're interested in terrorism or mental illness.

> either the arguments are presented clearly from first principles with evidence or theyre not.

The first principles from which the arguments proceed are the personal vendettas of a sick man. From that understanding of the first principles, the text can be read properly. From other understandings of the first principles, the text will be misinterpreted.

> the intent or state of the writer is irrevelant.

This is not true of any other political text. The intent and state of the founders is highly relevant to interpreting the declaration of independence. The intent and state of Marx is highly relevant to interpreting the communist manifesto. Even scientific revolutionary documents such as Darwin's Origins are not possible to read deeply & understand completely without learning more about the man.

The founders were nation building in a very particular context. Marx was movement building in a very particular context. Darwin was writing into a very specific scientific and political context. Reading these texts without appropriate historical and personal context would result in misreadings, or shallow readings, or, most often, shallow misreadings.

History and personal context always matter when reading texts deeply. We never ignore those things when reading other texts. Why would we suddenly start ignoring these salient details just because the author is a terrorist?

Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the core issue: how do you get everyone, every single person on earth, all 7bn to agree not to be dicks, not to want more than a bare subsistence lifestyle, not to engage in violence or coercion and not to invent tech? If we could solve human nature, we could have any ideological system. Communism would work, or anarcho capitalism or whatever. But we can't. We can't get people to cut back enough to avoid a gl…

> how do you get everyone, every single person on earth, all 7bn to agree not to be dicks Unfortunately, as you can imagine, I don't have an answer. I'm actually quite afraid that there's no answer and that we as a species aren't capable of large scale rational and compassionate cooperation. The global warming catastrophe won't wait for us. I'm quite afraid that my life won't end nicely. I don't expect to have a long…

> we as a species aren't capable of large scale rational and compassionate cooperation.

Most likely true, as far as it goes. Ironically enough, the closest thing we get to 'large-scale (even world-scale) rational and compassionate cooperation' is the very "industrial society" mentioned in the OP. You may not like industrial and post-industrial society, but it's not clear that there's any alternative if you want "everyone" to be involved.

Re: “Industrial Society and its Future”: the writings of the Unabomber

#130
post #23

Some people here can't seem to separate ideas from the person who generates them, and that is sad. You can hate what a person did and still try to understand why they did it. That does not equate to support for them. It's this kind of closed-mindedness that is driving people apart all over the world.

I don't think it's 'close minded' to conclude that if someone concludes the logical consequence of ideas is to become a mail-bombing hermit, the ideas themselves might fall some way short of being a 'must read for technooptimists'.

Even outside the context of the person who generates them which is the sole reason the manifesto garners any interest at all, I am not sure the world is being driven apart because people do not read enough tracts about the need to 'take a resolutely anti-leftist stance and ... avoid all collaboration with leftists'.

If technooptimists and leftists want to read articles critical of their positions [preferably positions they actually hold...], which would be a good thing, they're surely more likely to be persuaded by tracts which are less reliant on sweeping generalization and notable for reasons other than the author's death toll.

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