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Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

theguardian.com

151–160 of 252 posts

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#151
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world, for better or worse, will be built by the people in their private capacity, whether individually or acting in concert through government. Complaining about for-profit institutions pursuing profit is, at best, a category error, and has nothing to do with our ability to shape the world except a childish inability to separate an organization represented by people from actual people . It's like making a pool i…

I don’t think it is correct to say that for-profit orgs have absolutely no moral agency or responsibility. It is obviously different than that of individuals, but it very much exists. I honestly can’t even imagine what it would mean for companies to have absolutely no moral responsibility. Wouldn’t they behave like gangs or mobsters? Or even more extreme?

It would look like democracy right now.

And no, that wasn't snark. I'm basically paraphrasing Alan Moore's statement that democracy is just another way of being ruled by the biggest mob.

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#152
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think wanting black people to not get regularly murdered by the police is marxism, per se. Neither is being against celebrating slavers etc. Claiming the CCP and BLM are on the same page would be comical if I wasn't so sure you were serious.

While your first two statements are true, they are a textbook example of a straw man argument. I did not say they are marxist because they don't want people murdered by the police. I also didn't say they're marxist because they're against celebrating slavers. If you're willing to learn, you may want to look up what Patrisse Cullors has to say about her own BLM movement. I feel sorry that you think this is comical.

The material achievements and goals of BLM stemmed from those basic things. I feel sorry that you seem to not have noticed this.

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#153
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you at some point think that the corporate leadership of a massive for-profit organization was going to make a public statement that was anything other than the bare minimum lip service they were required to pay in order to weather the PR storm of the day, so that they could continue doing business? The answer to that question is almost always "no," and certainly until proven otherwise. Complaining that these cor…

Did you at some point think that the corporate leadership of a massive for-profit organization was going to make a public statement that was anything other than the bare minimum lip service they were required to pay in order to weather the PR storm of the day, so that they could continue doing business? It’s not just that. By encouraging civil unrest in the US/UK and continuing to funnel money to Chinese sweatshops t…

That ad was a neat PR trick, seeing as it seemed to make people forget that Apple is one of the most profitable companies in human existence. It's not a "revolutionary" company, it just makes really good products.

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#155
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that this is the behaviour displayed by (almost?) all large corporations and thus that expecting that they will behave differently is irrational, in the sense that that expectation will always turn out to be false. That said, I don't see why that means we should expect that behaviour in the sense that we should consider this the expected, correct, behvaiour from corporations. Perhaps if everyone believed that…

> If everyone was like OP in condeming these corporations maybe their expectations would eventually become real. No, they wouldn't, because the selection pressure on the organization is for the minimum amount of signaling required to optimize profits, not actual morality - not least of which because optimizing for profits optimizes for continued existence of the organization, and maximizing morality does not. Holding…

> No, they wouldn't, because the selection pressure on the organization is for the minimum amount of signaling required to optimize profits, not actual morality - not least of which because optimizing for profits optimizes for continued existence of the organization, and maximizing morality does not. Holding them to a higher moral standard just changes the measure of "what is the minimum amount of signaling required?" Selection pressure is unyielding - values that don't affect survival ultimately don't matter, because however much you like it, it will be competed out of existence.

So if people were to apply selection pressure on organizations by condeming their actions and removing them from mainstream acceptance, leading to reduced profits (e.g. "Ewww, you're wearing Nike? Don't you know those are made by child laborers?!"), the optimal behaviour for them will be to exhibit a more moral behaviour.

In particular, this would be much better than the attitude I replied to of "Of course Nike are using child laborers, as a corporation that is just what they do.".

> Nor could an organization exhibit actual morality, because an organization doesn't have continuity of thought or policy - flip a few board members, change an executive team, and the people whose judgement comprises "the company's judgement" just changed entirely. It would be like discussing the morality of a robot which regularly swapped the brain it contains.

> You're making the same category error as the previous poster: describing "corporation" as a noun that has a characteristic known as "morality," and then lamenting the amount of "morality" we expect from it.

I agree that the behvaiour of an orgnization is an emergent property of the members of that organization and their culture, so it is hard to ascribe morals to the organization as a whole. However, I don't think it really matters what mechanism generates a good behaviour as much as the good behaviour itself. In my metaphorical example so far, if the Nike CEO literally hated children and wanted to work them to death but halted all child labor just to save profits, I'm still happy that the practice of child labor was stopped. Furthermore, if the Head of an organization was held liable for the actions of that organization (either legally or just socially), they would work to make sure the organization behaves in a way that makes them comfortable. If everyone in the world agreed that a certain behaviour was required of that organization, then that would include the members of that organization and itself would influence the behaviour internally.

> Morality is for people. Profit-seeking institutions don't have morality - they have regulatory constraints on profit-seeking avenues. Tricking people into thinking corporations have the former is a jedi mind trick: keep people focused on controlling corporations with the same social censure mechanisms that work on people means you're not focusing your time and effort on the mechanisms of control that would actually work on corporations.

Sure, applying regulatory constraints on organizations is also useful (though the same caveats you yourself mentioned still apply, e.g. a common failure in these regulatory constraints is that the risk-adjusted penalty the regulation sets is lower than the risk-adjusted profit, so the organization is still incentivied to break regulations). This regulation can be the result of public demand (in as much as the politicans writing it also respond to social pressure).

> It's like a red dragon walking around talking about oh, gosh, how much his sunburn hurts. He's immune to fire;

Heck, even if an organization says something without meaning it, that still has value. If 10,000 brands update their Facebook page to say "Black Lives Matter" but do nothing further about it (like donating to relevant causes, promoting black workers inside the company etc.) that still helps normalize and propagate the idea that "Black Lives Matter" and has some value of itself (though obviously much less value than actually acting about it).

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#156
post #149

Hong Kong is the freedom and civil rights issue of this generation. There should be protests and boycotts in every US city about this, instead it barely receives coverage...

Why only US? EU/Switzerland/UK/Australia/India/Japan/Korea should as well.

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#157
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think wanting black people to not get regularly murdered by the police is marxism, per se. Neither is being against celebrating slavers etc. Claiming the CCP and BLM are on the same page would be comical if I wasn't so sure you were serious.

BLM is not a monolithic entity though, and is comprised of lots of groups pushing lots of agendas. e.g https://mobile.twitter.com/agavedelacalle/status/12691745749... . I was lucky enough to read about china in university and read 3 different books about Mao for varying perspectives. What is happening in the US is strikingly similar to the cultural revolution. Making "anti progress" people kowotow to the revolution,…

> What is happening in the US is strikingly similar to the cultural revolution

Certainly the Cultural Revolution was way way worse. And yes it brings to mind certain similarities for sure. Taking away livelihoods without due process is bad. Being put to death is worse.

Current events do bring to my mind certain aspects of "self-criticism" [1]. As an observation, I'm thinking of the other HN front page post [2] about de-escalating. I'm not on twitter so maybe I'm misunderstanding this. Apparently if I tweet something wrong, it might explode virally and I might lose my livelihood... and the solution is to de-escalate (maybe with some tool twitter might helpfully provide) by apologizing and learning that there's still a lot to learn, to deeply admit the mistake, and listen deeply and thoughtfully, and to be reeducated on what's wrong with what I thought.

Another aspect brought to mind is "struggle session" [3], "a form of public humiliation and torture that was used ... during the Cultural Revolution". Certainly what happened in CR is absolutely way worse. What happens on twitter and elsewhere online do bring to mind certain aspects I've observed... the public humiliation and shaming, mobilizing the masses online, group of people accusing another 'privileged group or person, revisiting past mistakes.

There are indeed interesting similarities to compare and contrast though.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-criticism_(Marxism%E2%80%... [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23734535 [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#158
post #93
post #11

It was very clever of China to tighten their grip on Hong Kong while the world is distracted with the pandemic, and the US is further distracted with its own issues. Well played. I hope it backfires on them.

This is one part of a several act drama that is playing out for the home audience. Reign in the disobedient teenager (Hong Kong) by taking his skateboard away. Act two is a military provocation, which is why the US has moved more hardware into the area.

US should equip Taiwan with nuclear weapons for deterrance. Should there be invasion en-masse, deep in the mountains of Taiwan there would be nuclear weapons ready to strike.

Nuclear weapons are great to keep peace in the region.

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#159
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe in other states, but the US purchased much of California from Mexico, so that population isn’t immigrant to that region, but native to it. That historical basis—of there being (acquired) natural US citizens whose primary spoken language is Spanish—is one of the main reasons that Spanish is a national language. Spanish-language books aren’t at-all strange to see in (Southern) California libraries. They’re part o…

That's.... only sort of true. California was actually almost depopulated at the time of US conquest. The Spanish (mostly via disease) had essentially wiped out the native population, and there was very little hispanic re-settlement of CA by 1846. A lot of the remaining population was Native, which (shocker!) did not actually speak Spanish as a native language -- they spoke their own native languages. There was a Span…

> given that the Americans only showed up a hundred years after the (mostly failed) Mission system started teaching Spanish

Much less than 100 years. Mission San Diego, founded 1769. Mission Delores (San Francisco), founded 1776. Yankees started showing up in the 1820s, purchasing land parcels from local cash-strapped rancheros with gold. And the Russians only sold-out Ft. Ross in northern California to John Sutter in 1841. By the time Mexico and the USA went to war in 1846, ostensibly because the Texas Republic joined the Union, the California English and Spanish speaking populations were about evenly split at 5,000 each. More English speaking in northern California, more Spanish speaking in southern.

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are other democracies besides the US, and they're all doing fine in general. Our PM recently pointed out in a speech [1], that maybe the US couldn't beat them alone, but Aus, Japan, Phillipines, India, Indonesia, Korea and the US could probably have a good shot at it, all countries China is picking fights with, not that I think its likely, just saber rattling - there's no profit for China in a war, just loss of…

How was China picking fight on "Aus, Japan, Phillipines, India, Indonesia" Philippines and Indonesia are the target of picking fight on the islands at South China Sea. I have no idea China is initiating fight with India Australia or Japan.

When did you stop following the news? The Indian soldiers killed in a border skirmish has been all over.
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