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Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

theguardian.com

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Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#31

Post by 9nGQluzmnq3M »

baybal2 wrote: post #27
paganel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any handy links for that Google-Russia story? It’s not that I don’t believe, because I do (IMO this is something that Google would have done) it’s just that I’m on mobile and am too lazy to search for those links myself.

That episode has near no coverage in English, and I don't think much of coverage in Russian survived to this day. But here is it in basics: Russian opposition was completely dominating the Internet at the time, before around 2005, a complete opposite of the picture on the TV, and fake opinion polls. Kremlin was not happy, and went straight to the Internet's "kingmaker" — Google (or maybe it was the other way around?)…

Um, I thought Yandex was the dominant search engine in Russia, not Google?

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#32

Post by baybal2 »

wxnx wrote: post #23
baybal2 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Microsoft, Apple, Google, Netflix, Blizzard Don't you think that C-levels of all of them were previously dying to get into China, and were ready to do anything? On my memory, Google's advisers were all over Kremlin, coaching the regime in "internet media operations" in 2005-2008, teaching them how to hound opposition online, and doing psyops style public opinion manipulation, while inventing silly lies about the na…

> Don't you think that C-levels of all of them were previously dying to get into China, and were ready to do anything? > ... > treason In the case of China, doesn't the US government in some ways encourage this? I forget the colloquial name for the "policy" (if you can call it that, because I don't think it's codified into law), but isn't the idea that if the US shares some of the fruits of capitalism and liberal dem…

> if the US shares some of the fruits of capitalism and liberal democracy with China, the people of their country may follow suit?

You don't share liberal democracy by teaming up with rogue regimes against it.

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#33

Post by NikolaeVarius »

chadcmulligan wrote: post #26
arkades wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Russian, seeing how Russians perceive things, which I imagine is something of an analogue: They don't believe our internal propaganda. That's why Russia and the like spend so much time hyping up where we don't live up to our ideals - it lets them sell the line that we're just as bad, just as corrupt, just as etc. but we either mouth the propaganda trying to get by, or we're dumb/gullible enough to fall for the p…

interesting, but Russians afaik don't get schooled overseas too much, like so many Chinese students spend years at overseas uni's, you'd think some of it would seep in. If not I'm very disappointed with the universities. Edit: a world without dissent seems so ... pointless

Don't forget Kim Jong Un was educated in Switzerland

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#34

Post by hoophoop »

BurningFrog wrote: post #22
Aqua wrote: post #3

Isn't it surprising that Microsoft, Apple, Google, Netflix, Blizzard and others don't express their deep regret and support the people of Hong Kong? If they really stood by their values they would act in the same way as they did by supporting the BLM movement. It's just another proof that they only did that to get press coverage for being "benevolent" and not because they genuinely supported the people. Disgraceful.

People do things that benefit them, and avoid doing things that harm them. They motivate their selfish actions, to others but also to themselves (Motivated Reasoning) with noble sounding arguments. Our brains are very good at coming up with those. Once you understand and accept this, you can process the world on a higher level. The hardest part is seeing when you do this yourself.

Let's stop with the performative cynicism on HN.

There is overwhelming scientific evidence that (mentally healthy) humans are pretty capable of empathy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy

> They motivate their selfish actions, to others but also to themselves (Motivated Reasoning) with noble sounding arguments

You are claiming that selfishness is the only driver but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivated_reasoning goes both ways.

Besides, why do you refer to people as "they"? Are you a bot?

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#35

Post by raspyberr »

Aqua wrote: post #3

Isn't it surprising that Microsoft, Apple, Google, Netflix, Blizzard and others don't express their deep regret and support the people of Hong Kong? If they really stood by their values they would act in the same way as they did by supporting the BLM movement. It's just another proof that they only did that to get press coverage for being "benevolent" and not because they genuinely supported the people. Disgraceful.

Corporations are not people. No matter how much they've tried to convince you and even gain rights over the last 150 years. They. Are. Not. People. They don't have emotions or intentions.

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#36

Post by jpgreens »

praptak wrote: post #19
jansan wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you say about classic literature being banned from classrooms because people were unable to see the content in the context of the time it was written?

I see it as an order of magnitude less dangerous than censorship at the library level.

You mean that wasn't real ? Censoring 'at the library level' is not more or less dangerous than burning books. Its intent is exactly the same: silence opposing views, control the narrative and people's thoughts. Your statement is a testament to the slippery slope that Western society is on right now.

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#37

Post by hkt »

chadcmulligan wrote: post #12

How is it that many Chinese students are schooled in the west, and have access to all these books and thoughts, but then they don't exist when they go back home. There must be some significant cognitive dissonance between the two situations. I don't see how they can keep a lid on this long term.

I imagine the effects will take some time to filter through, but yeah, a generation of the Chinese elite being schooled in the west seems likely to have a pretty profound impact. I suppose this is part of the west's gambit in being so open to international students generally.

On the other hand, the Chinese community at universities in my city includes many who don't speak English or try to interact with the locals. There are paper mills designed to get people through the English language requirements if they can pay the right price, the worst of which appear to do nothing but basic hellos and thank yous. It seems unlikely that the majority of Chinese students will have westernised to any great extent, going on what happens here.

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#38

Post by baybal2 »

9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #31
baybal2 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That episode has near no coverage in English, and I don't think much of coverage in Russian survived to this day. But here is it in basics: Russian opposition was completely dominating the Internet at the time, before around 2005, a complete opposite of the picture on the TV, and fake opinion polls. Kremlin was not happy, and went straight to the Internet's "kingmaker" — Google (or maybe it was the other way around?)…

Um, I thought Yandex was the dominant search engine in Russia, not Google?

It wasn't really, it only managed to clearly dominate long after Google's interest in Russia cooled down.

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#39

Post by hkt »

praptak wrote: post #16
mensetmanusman wrote: post #9

The world has already spoken: Money is more important than human rights.

The Moloch from the Slate Star Codex has spoken. As a corporation you can support human rights but you'll get outcompeted by the less scrupulous actors. In theory the government could step in to solve this coordination problem, but it is also subject to the coordination problem. Other governments willing to throw human rights under the bus will reap the economic benefits of cooperation with China.

There's a big, untapped market for "ethical" that doesn't receive enough capital. I for one would pay for a fairtrade certified laptop. No such laptop exists at present, although there are phones (FairPhone) that fit the bill.

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#40

Post by numpad0 »

lisardo wrote: post #2

"Dort wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen." - Wherever they burn books, in the end will also burn human beings. Heinrich Heine

But do they burn books first or do they burn human and also go after their books?

I think it’s usually human first and that that takes until it reaches to the books to be recognized.

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