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Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

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Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#181

Post by unixbeard1337 »

jevgeni wrote: post #170
unixbeard1337 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key feature of capitalism is the economy is defined by capital, i.e. money that makes money, preferably at scale. That didn't exist in any sustained, important way until the early modern period in Europe.

The Roman Empire had a pretty thriving and developed usury economy, so I'm not sure why you think it's a modern thing. Also, just FYI: the term "capital" as used by economists doesn't mean money. It means ownership of means of production.

I was thinking of Roman moneylenders like Seneca as I wrote that. But they didn't lend money for "means of production" like steam engines etc. Everything was all slave power. But even if we allow Rome as capitalism (which I don't agree with, but fine) it still disappeared (again, at scale) for a millennium or two afterwards.

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#182

Post by TeaDrunk »

jholman wrote: post #176
TeaDrunk wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there's eternal shame to dole out. I think it's perfectly equivalent to say if you give someone lifelong trauma that the result should be lifelong consequences, including that people don't want to affiliate with you.

> if you give someone lifelong trauma that the result should be lifelong consequences That is a terrible plan. There's no restoration there, only retribution. We can do better than an eye for an eye.

Restoration is a consequence. But additionally, I don't think anyone should be morally obliged to befriend someone who did something against their moral code. For example, if I had a friend who I understood to have committed CSA there is no timeline of which I would be okay with continuing to be their friend.

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#183

Post by _glsb »

unixbeard1337 wrote: post #181
jevgeni wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Roman Empire had a pretty thriving and developed usury economy, so I'm not sure why you think it's a modern thing. Also, just FYI: the term "capital" as used by economists doesn't mean money. It means ownership of means of production.

I was thinking of Roman moneylenders like Seneca as I wrote that. But they didn't lend money for "means of production" like steam engines etc. Everything was all slave power. But even if we allow Rome as capitalism (which I don't agree with, but fine) it still disappeared (again, at scale) for a millennium or two afterwards.

Well, I'd argue that slaves were the means of production.

But also things like olive oil presses. There's this example of an ancient Greek philosopher Thales essentially inventing the option derivative contract by buying the rights to use oil presses before the harvest for cheap, and charging a high price to use those presses once the harvest proved to be bountiful.[1]

The dip in banking during the Dark Ages in Europe is mostly the effect of Christianity banning usury. But globally the practices didn't stop.

I'm not sure, why it's important to show that capitalism a) equates to banking, and b) is some relatively late invention of the Western civilization. Because it's not in both cases.

___

[1] - https://www.businessinsider.com/the-story-of-the-first-ever-...

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#184

Post by claudiawerner »

_glsb wrote: post #150
claudiawerner wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s seems a rather peculiar definition of capitalism, if it emerged so late. It's really not; historians, anthropologists, sociologists, and philosophers generally point to a few key features of capitalism, and can date it quite well. Federici draws from that argument.

Why would philosophers have a say in this? But point is, that question is far from settled. Especially if you consider the key features being the free market and private property, then capitalism goes far into BCE.

> Why would philosophers have a say in this?

Arguably because it's their job to examine the ontology and other features of poilitical philosophy, and formerly political economy.

>But point is, that question is far from settled.

It's is settled. Read mainstream sociologists, anthropologists and historians on this topic.

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#185

Post by CryptoPunk »

krustyburger wrote: post #144
CryptoPunk wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>persecution of people who either look or do something different from their own. Who is being persecuted now? The Cancel Culture is much more a modern corollary to witch hunts than anything conservatives are doing. Conservatives exhibit witch-hunting tendencies to some extent, in relation to liberals, where they promote unhinged conspiracy theories about them trying to subjucate the masses. But these conservatism in…

Ascribing the status of a capital noun to “cancel culture” is something reactionaries have been doing to try to paint all of their (many) ideological foes into the same category. The use of this term is an effort to distract from the fact that the vast majority of the celebrities who have been “cancelled” have actually victimized others or in other ways taken actions that were offensive or worse. In short, the only p…

Why would "reactionaries", which is a term very popular among Marxist types to describe those opposed to radical left causes, try to paint Cancel Culture in negative terms, if it did not have a heavy ideological slant?

>>The use of this term is an effort to distract from the fact that the vast majority of the celebrities who have been “cancelled” have actually victimized others or in other ways taken actions that were offensive or worse.

Criticizing Cancel Culture does not imply that one believes celebrities targeted by it haven't done bad things. It implies that the reaction is disproportionate and being pushed from a place of ideological extremism.

These unfair and disingenuous characterizations of critics is another characteristic of Cancel Culture. It has very hostile/sanctimonious ingroup/out-group dynamics, with a lot of conspiracy theories being attributed to the out-group.

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#186

Post by CryptoPunk »

ithkuil wrote: post #179
CryptoPunk wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>persecution of people who either look or do something different from their own. Who is being persecuted now? The Cancel Culture is much more a modern corollary to witch hunts than anything conservatives are doing. Conservatives exhibit witch-hunting tendencies to some extent, in relation to liberals, where they promote unhinged conspiracy theories about them trying to subjucate the masses. But these conservatism in…

Is "cancel culture" new? What happened in the past to people who would say inconvenient things (swear words or blasfemies in TV, being homosexual, ...)? Bigotry was always there. It's just that nowadays we have a different cultural majority. What's irritating about the present situation is that nominally the current cultural majority was against the bigots of the past and yet is applying pressure against who thinks d…

>>Is "cancel culture" new? What happened in the past to people who would say inconvenient things (swear words or blasfemies in TV, being homosexual, ...)?

Ostracization/cancellation of the non-conforming doesn't seem to be new. My point is that this kind of behavior is the modern corollary to witch hunts.

The Left Wing manifestation of it seen in modern times is called Cancel Culture, but all of its forms, past and present, have beeh types of mob persection in my opinion.

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#188

Post by pizzazzaro »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #141
praveen9920 wrote: post #89

Don't want to be political on HN but I see lot of parallels between now and then. A plague effected region, ruled by conservative parties, opposing science and logic in the name of religion or freedom. persecution of people who either look or do something different from their own. Printing press helped in spreading both lies and truth. Now a days, mainstream media and social media is being used to spread all kinds of…

>>persecution of people who either look or do something different from their own. Who is being persecuted now? The Cancel Culture is much more a modern corollary to witch hunts than anything conservatives are doing. Conservatives exhibit witch-hunting tendencies to some extent, in relation to liberals, where they promote unhinged conspiracy theories about them trying to subjucate the masses. But these conservatism in…

[dead]

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#189

Post by claudiawerner »

_glsb wrote: post #183
unixbeard1337 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking of Roman moneylenders like Seneca as I wrote that. But they didn't lend money for "means of production" like steam engines etc. Everything was all slave power. But even if we allow Rome as capitalism (which I don't agree with, but fine) it still disappeared (again, at scale) for a millennium or two afterwards.

Well, I'd argue that slaves were the means of production. But also things like olive oil presses. There's this example of an ancient Greek philosopher Thales essentially inventing the option derivative contract by buying the rights to use oil presses before the harvest for cheap, and charging a high price to use those presses once the harvest proved to be bountiful.[1] The dip in banking during the Dark Ages in Europ…

> Well, I'd argue that slaves were the means of production.

This is not what "means of production" means in political economy.

>I'm not sure, why it's important to show that capitalism a) equates to banking, and b) is some relatively late invention of the Western civilization. Because it's not in both cases.

Capitalism does not equate to "banking", but it is, historically speaking, late in Western civilization.

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#190

Post by jevgeni »

claudiawerner wrote: post #189
_glsb wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I'd argue that slaves were the means of production. But also things like olive oil presses. There's this example of an ancient Greek philosopher Thales essentially inventing the option derivative contract by buying the rights to use oil presses before the harvest for cheap, and charging a high price to use those presses once the harvest proved to be bountiful.[1] The dip in banking during the Dark Ages in Europ…

> Well, I'd argue that slaves were the means of production. This is not what "means of production" means in political economy. >I'm not sure, why it's important to show that capitalism a) equates to banking, and b) is some relatively late invention of the Western civilization. Because it's not in both cases. Capitalism does not equate to "banking", but it is, historically speaking, late in Western civilization.

I’m not sure what you mean exactly by “political economy”? In any case, what is excluded usually from definition of means of production is human capital. Slavery is decidedly not that. It is the ownership and dehumanization of people. There is no choice, no labour market. I don’t see a reason why it’s not a means of production other than “the textbook said so”.

—

What do you mean? It is a late phenomenon in the Western civilization or it is equatable to banking lately in the West?

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