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After many false starts, hydrogen power might now bear fruit

economist.com

61–70 of 343 posts

Re: After many false starts, hydrogen power might now bear fruit

#61
post #5

Okay, going to chime in here because this is categorically wrong on so many fronts. Tldr: Impossible for civilization to make an instantaneous non-gradual switch to hydrogen fuel cells. People like Hydrogen because they're hyped about how it is: - Clean - Plentiful - Emission-less Hydrogen is difficult to handle. - Unwieldy as a gas - Boils at 20 degrees F/ - 6 degrees C / ~420 Kelvins - Tough to maintain at a high p…

> Volume wise, ugh. H- 8 MJ/L, Gasoline - 32 MJ/L

In practice, hydrogen @10 kpsi/70 MPa is currently a bit over 1 MJ/L when including the tanks. Gasoline is misleading as well, because a fuel cell is easily twice as efficient as a gas engine and up to 3x.

Li-ion batteries are anywhere from .5 to 2.5 MJ/L, for reference. Thing is, volumetric efficiency is all but irrelevant for most applications. Even airplanes have huge amounts of empty space that could accommodate tanks; container ships would be less efficient but that's about it.

> You need ~5-10 kilograms of H2 to deal with light duty vehicles.

5 kg will take a Toyota Mirai over 300 miles.

> Training and retraining all the gas station attendants to deal with cryogenic materials is no small undertaking.

This is not a thing. Attendants don't need to do anything with cryogenic anything.

> Hydrogen penetrates metals. Makes metals the enemy and things can wear down unexpectedly. Scary stuff. Preventative maintenance is complicated.

This is an issue when you're trying to build electron microscopes, not when you're fueling cars. The diffusion rate of hydrogen is negligible for everyday purposes like safety. Certain parts need to be designed to avoid embrittlement, but it's a minor problem- embrittlement is only really an issue at VERY high temperatures. If the steel isn't glowing, it's a minor issue, and for most other metals it's even less of an issue.

> Pumping hydrogen into a vehicle is done slowly from my recollection.

It's as fast as a highway pump, and often slightly faster. It's pretty hard to pump slowly when 10 kpsi is involved, after all.

> Hydrogen's flames are invisible. It's a pale blue flame that's difficult to see during the day.

Typically it just explodes, unfortunately. Hydrogen is always at such high pressure that it spreads out rapidly and sustained flames are very unlikely, and then there's the fact that the energy density causes things to break.

> The efficiency of manufacturing hydrogen for fuel usage is probably like 10% to 30%. Can't imagine it being more than that.

Commercial processes are ~60% and non-commercial are above 80%.

Re: After many false starts, hydrogen power might now bear fruit

#62
post #31

I used to drive a hydrogen car once in a while a few years ago. It was nice to fill the car in a few minutes and get about 300km of range, but that was it. With the hydrogen you have so few refueling stations, they are very expensive, that range anxiety is a thing. To not improve things, reliability is very poor. My work had a hydrogen refueling station on its parking. It was often broken and actually a bit scary to…

The article isn't about hydrogen cars and in fact points out that hydrogen cars have lots of problems.

I hate that most people just respond to the title and don't respond to the contents of the article.

Re: After many false starts, hydrogen power might now bear fruit

#63
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

edit: misinterpreted "desal" as diesel rather than desalinated water. Well that's just not at all true. Hydrogen by electrolysis costs https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/36734.pdf

1000 gallons of desalination costs $2 or $3. I was responding to point 7, not comparing hydrogen to diesel .

ah, I thought you had misspelled.

Re: After many false starts, hydrogen power might now bear fruit

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue of charging was also there with BEVs, until Tesla straight up built a huge network of superchargers. The players in hydrogen say they will do the same. But for personal vehicles, hydrogen won't math out, it's greatest advantage is its energy density for trucks. It's for long range trucks that we will see hydrogen first. Green hydrogen will act as energy storage, big renewables grids can dump excess into gre…

Maybe ships is an even better fit than trucks?

Trucks are explicitly limited by weight, ships are somewhat limited by volume. Container ships especially need to be loaded way up because the cargo is less dense than eg crude oil.

Heavy trucks are also a much bigger issue than international shipping, which is only ~2% of global GHG. 6.7% of US GHG emissions come from medium and heavy duty trucks, or 23% of emissions due to transportation.

Re: After many false starts, hydrogen power might now bear fruit

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue of charging was also there with BEVs, until Tesla straight up built a huge network of superchargers. The players in hydrogen say they will do the same. But for personal vehicles, hydrogen won't math out, it's greatest advantage is its energy density for trucks. It's for long range trucks that we will see hydrogen first. Green hydrogen will act as energy storage, big renewables grids can dump excess into gre…

Maybe ships is an even better fit than trucks?

Would it be though? I understand ships are heavy polluters, but the areas they are polluting in are much larger than trucks in traffic in cities. Cities are so much more dense, and you can see that effect in satellite imagery.

Re: After many false starts, hydrogen power might now bear fruit

#66
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you always have full (trip) range every morning with an EV. Yes, filling up in 5 minutes is better than 20. Never needing to fill up is even better.

> Never needing to fill up is even better. And which technology allows for that? The cars "running on water" that new age alien enthusiasts are always on about?

There's also the work on wireless charging via the roadway, itself. No, it isn't working right now but it's in its infancy. Only the very first prototypes have been rolled out, and they don't wear well, admittedly. Solutions are being worked on.

Technology is only limited by your imagination and your ability to problem solve. =)

Re: After many false starts, hydrogen power might now bear fruit

#67

I used to drive a hydrogen car once in a while a few years ago. It was nice to fill the car in a few minutes and get about 300km of range, but that was it. With the hydrogen you have so few refueling stations, they are very expensive, that range anxiety is a thing. To not improve things, reliability is very poor. My work had a hydrogen refueling station on its parking. It was often broken and actually a bit scary to…

When you consider the energy required to produce lithium ion batteries they are actually worse than fuel cells from an emissions perspective: “As an example, a 100kWh battery will give a potential range of 250 miles and, in order to produce that battery, it will take around 20 tonnes of CO2,” he said. “A typical battery lasts for 150,000 miles, so that equates to around 83g/km of CO2. Then, when you take into account…

1.) There is already tech in development for batteries to last 1M miles.

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/06/11/catl-million-mile-batter...

2.) Energy required to produce the batteries will eventually shift to zero emission sources.

3.) Materials can be recycled from the battery even after its million+ mile use.

It’s hard to overcome the energy required to produce hydrogen plus the bad efficiency of fuel cells compared to batteries/electric motors.

Re: After many false starts, hydrogen power might now bear fruit

#68
post #49

I used to drive a hydrogen car once in a while a few years ago. It was nice to fill the car in a few minutes and get about 300km of range, but that was it. With the hydrogen you have so few refueling stations, they are very expensive, that range anxiety is a thing. To not improve things, reliability is very poor. My work had a hydrogen refueling station on its parking. It was often broken and actually a bit scary to…

> Electric cars with large batteries are a much better solution to hydrogen cars IMHO. Electric cars are still very dangerous when they catch fire though. And the fires are very difficult to control. Especially in multistorey (or underground) car parks. And even more so if there are multiple EVs parked next to eachother.

And gasoline cars aren’t?

Re: After many false starts, hydrogen power might now bear fruit

#69
post #44
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't charge your hydrogen car at home, not to mention without any special and expensive equipment.

It pays off to read the comment fully before replying to it.

My reply was mostly meant only for the first 2 sentences, except the trucking part.

I was trying to evidentiate that charging stations built by tesla supplement home charging or any normal outlet. It's a bit different than building a network of superchargers because the demand would be a lot higher because a hydrogen powered car will be fully dependent of those specially built charging stations.

The main idea is that a BEV owner doesn't need a supercharger station to use his car. Sure, it'll be nice, but not mandatory; let's not forget that not everybody lives in US or W. Europe where the network is more developed.

Re: After many false starts, hydrogen power might now bear fruit

#70

This article looks like a fine discussion about the economics of hydrogen production, but unless I've missed something it skips over the immense storage difficulty. Hydrogen is a difficult thing to manage in quantity. Its density is fantastically low, so storing it in gas form requires absurd pressures -- an inherent risk to any vehicle. Storing it in liquid form goes a long way towards solving the density/pressure p…

Not to mention the efficiency of converting the stored Hydrogen to power. It’s hard to beat the efficiency of a battery and electric motor.
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