MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars • Hacker News Board

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#851

Post by cgrealy » Fri, Jul 03, 2020, 11:56 PM UTC

Kallrian wrote: post #801

cgrealy wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that your beater car skin doesn't remind an entire demographic of a time a whole bunch of people went to war so they could keep said demographic as property. If you want to be funny about the confederate flag, go do an open mike. There's no context in a racing game... so while it might be some hilarious meta-commentary on the ridiculousness of racism, the only thing another player sees is "there's s…

You’ve never heard of the Dukes or Hazzard have you? Their 1969 Dodge Charger is one of the most iconic cars in tv history, and Forza happens to have a ‘69 charger as a drivable car

No, I’ve heard of them. When I was a kid, I actually had a General Lee windup car, before I knew anything about the history of the civil war.

And then, I grew up.

You can still drive a charger if you want. Now you just can’t paint a racist flag of treason on it.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#852

Post by pyuser583 » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 12:36 AM UTC

riffraff wrote: post #771

pyuser583 wrote: post #750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So all racists have to do is adopt something as a “inside” symbol, then publicly advertise its “real” meaning, and everyone rushes to avoid it no matter how common it is. I could see white supremecists doing this for fun.

yeah, it seems we've ended up giving too much power to hate groups instead of reclaiming their symbols.

Have we really got to the point where we talk about “reclaiming” the Ok symbol from white supremcists!?

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#853

Post by SamReidHughes » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 1:32 AM UTC

timsally wrote: post #782

SamReidHughes wrote: post #777

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were defending themselves against invasion by the U.S. Army.

How can someone be "defending" themselves when they initiated hostilities? [1] Unilateral succession is illegal. Those flying the confederate flag were not defending themselves, they were committing treason. Our Union is an indestructible one. It was safeguarded then by the U.S. Army who will continue to safeguard it as long as America endures. It feels me with great sadness to think of the blood that was spilled, bu…

That's just a bunch of words, a grab-bag of facts, and it lacks a philosophical or moral foundation connecting it together. However, it would satisfy an automated grading system.

An actual moral reason not to fly the confederate flag on your home or your video game automobile would be because many black people interpret it as a racist symbol, and they might feel unloved and alienated.

A philosophical reason would be if you disagree with the sectionalist politics of it. That's why many groups opposed the introduction of the symbol into state flags in the past. That sounds more aligned with your reasons, but is a different reason. The act of flying Italian, German, Mexican, or British flags to celebrate one's ethnic heritage seems quite different than that of flying the confederate flag.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#854

Post by timsally » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 1:59 AM UTC

SamReidHughes wrote: post #853

timsally wrote: post #782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can someone be "defending" themselves when they initiated hostilities? [1] Unilateral succession is illegal. Those flying the confederate flag were not defending themselves, they were committing treason. Our Union is an indestructible one. It was safeguarded then by the U.S. Army who will continue to safeguard it as long as America endures. It feels me with great sadness to think of the blood that was spilled, bu…

That's just a bunch of words, a grab-bag of facts, and it lacks a philosophical or moral foundation connecting it together. However, it would satisfy an automated grading system. An actual moral reason not to fly the confederate flag on your home or your video game automobile would be because many black people interpret it as a racist symbol, and they might feel unloved and alienated. A philosophical reason would be…

The racism aspect has been well covered elsewhere. In addition to this, it is the battle flag of an illegal militia who killed U.S. soldiers. Opposing this clearly has an extremely strong moral foundation.

Your arguments are transparently shallow, poorly thought out, and profoundly un-American. If my arguments would satisfy an automated grading system, yours would fail immediately upon parsing. I see no value in continuing a conversation with someone who claims there is no moral foundation in opposing the killing of U.S. troops by illegal insurgents. Feel free to have the last word here on this message board; in the real world the last word was the surrender of the Confederacy.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#855

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 2:31 AM UTC

timsally wrote: post #854

SamReidHughes wrote: post #853

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just a bunch of words, a grab-bag of facts, and it lacks a philosophical or moral foundation connecting it together. However, it would satisfy an automated grading system. An actual moral reason not to fly the confederate flag on your home or your video game automobile would be because many black people interpret it as a racist symbol, and they might feel unloved and alienated. A philosophical reason would be…

The racism aspect has been well covered elsewhere. In addition to this, it is the battle flag of an illegal militia who killed U.S. soldiers. Opposing this clearly has an extremely strong moral foundation. Your arguments are transparently shallow, poorly thought out, and profoundly un-American. If my arguments would satisfy an automated grading system, yours would fail immediately upon parsing. I see no value in cont…

[deleted]

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#856

Post by FireBeyond » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 3:11 AM UTC

Aerroon wrote: post #783

FireBeyond wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your conclusion here is that these people were all making this sign for non-nefarious meanings. On the contrary, it is contextually highly/entirely likely that they were _actively_ choosing to use it in a political manner. They _themselves_ were choosing to imbue political meaning on it, as much as anyone was choosing to _take_ meaning from it.

> On the contrary, it is contextually highly/entirely likely that they were _actively_ choosing to use it in a political manner. Based on what? If you go looking for things with a specific interpretation in mind you're going to find a lot of it even in places that it wasn't meant that way. The adage about malice and incompetence comes to mind.

Based on the fact that a group of eight or so people with Confederate flags, tattoos and armed and wearing body armor went out of their way to pose, in front of a BLM protest, all making that sign.

"wasn't meant that way" - you're going have to try harder than that. Saying "oh, they meant nothing inflammatory, even though they're the group (3%ers) who are most associated with the nefarious intent and are absolutely aware of it's purported meaning" is wilfully disingenuous.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#857

Post by beaner » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 7:32 AM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #759

beaner wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History is important because it lets us see ourselves in the arc of time and be more cognizant of how and why we arrived at the present moment. When we idolize figures who we believe did good things, we project a guide line from the past into the future for ourselves to follow. When we erase history, we lose this guidance and direction. It's no mistake that the mob is responsible for the destruction, because a lack o…

> When we erase history, we lose this guidance and direction. The AHA has specifically put out a statement[0] about monuments. The prime quote: > To remove a monument, or to change the name of a school or street, is not to erase history, but rather to alter or call attention to a previous interpretation of history. Thucydides , arguably the very first historian ever, criticized statues and monuments as poor represent…

Historians are record-keepers of history, they are not arbiters of ethics, spirituality, and guidance. Statues of people are not meant to teach us about those people per se, but rather hold to us an example of exceptional attributes of those people that should be considered timeless so that we can follow them into the future. The determination of relevance in this context is not something that should be ceded to historians in any capacity other than to simply confirm or reject that the specific attribute that we appreciate in a figure is based on a historical accuracy. Did Lincoln free the slaves? Yes. Did Washington help lead a revolution? Yes. These are easy questions. The distinction between history and historical memory is not lost; based on an accurate history, we can highlight good attributes use them to reinforce timeless principles that we'd like to continue to carry through time.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#858

Post by stevekemp » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 7:55 AM UTC

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #822

stevekemp wrote: post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Today there was a news story about Finland dropping the swastika from their air-force logo: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53249645

Which is something I think deserves a bit of context. It had been the Finnish air force's official insignia since 1918, so it was unrelated to the German Nazi Party, although of course that association was inevitable once they seized power. Similarly, the stone elephant holding the gate building to the old Carlsberg grounds in Copenhagen bear huge swastikas on their sides, since they were erected in 1901: https://en.…

I think that was explained quite well in the article, and while the symbol has had a long history I think it is fair to say that these days the majority of people would see the symbol and think "Nazi".

Removing it feels like a reasonable thing to do, though I'd probably draw the line at chisel it off old-buildings, etc.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#859

Post by marcusverus » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 12:11 PM UTC

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #827

marcusverus wrote: post #806

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Following the declaration of secession by South Carolina on December 20, 1860, its authorities demanded that the U.S. Army abandon its facilities in Charleston Harbor. On December 26, Major Robert Anderson of the U.S. Army surreptitiously moved his small command from the vulnerable Fort Moultrie on Sullivan's Island to Fort Sumter, a substantial fortress built on an island controlling the entrance of Charleston Har…

SC initiated hostilities by seceding. It is a clear attack on a nation to secede from it, something that is classified as treason.

People either have the right to self-govern, or they don't. If you think the right of a population to self-govern is subject to veto by another population, you don't actually believe in a right to self-govern.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#860

Post by ebg13 » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 3:10 PM UTC

beaner wrote: post #289

ebg13 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> figures saying the western portrayal of Christ is systemic racism You mean the ones where he's shown as west-european white? I suppose we could bother thinking about why he looks like that in those portrayals when he definitely wouldn't have in real life.

One reason is that people might feel closer to something that they think superficially resembles themselves. This is part of the reason why diversity is important, according to so many people right now. Not just because groups have more perspectives, but because the people in the minority feel more comfortable when the minority is not so small. I remember some years ago about a situation regarding a movie. I forget t…

> One reason is that people might feel closer to something that they think superficially resembles themselves.

I agree! And then they proceeded to spread that image throughout the world (commonly via imperial colonialism) as "god looks like me, not you". That closely aligns with the concept of systemic racism.

> Plus it seems strange to me that ...the most offensive or historically inaccurate thing is...

"Most" is a strawman. We don't need to start assigning gold/silver/bronze medals to badness in order to recognize that it's bad and work to change it.