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Finding the 'invisible' millions who are not on maps

bbc.com

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Re: Finding the 'invisible' millions who are not on maps

#41

Post by ip26 »

b112 wrote: post #5

"It's shameful that we - as cartographers of the world - don't take enough interest to even know where they are. People are living and dying without appearing on any database." I know. Context. Context . There's nothing wrong with the above, with last sentence in context. But that last sentence makes me cringe, these days. The thought! The very thought that a human being may be anonymous, not counted, not known, not…

On the other hand, slight tangent, I always found it gut-wrenching that casualties in war have error bars of hundreds of thousands of people- even if you narrow your focus to just active combatants. We send hordes of young men into conflict, and somehow we can't even hold ourselves accountable for their deaths.

Re: Finding the 'invisible' millions who are not on maps

#42

Post by ip26 »

sebmellen wrote: post #7
b112 wrote: post #5

"It's shameful that we - as cartographers of the world - don't take enough interest to even know where they are. People are living and dying without appearing on any database." I know. Context. Context . There's nothing wrong with the above, with last sentence in context. But that last sentence makes me cringe, these days. The thought! The very thought that a human being may be anonymous, not counted, not known, not…

Even in context, the whole concept is a bit strange. If I read something like this, coming from just 40 years ago, it would seem absurd. I strongly dislike the urge of modern humans to categorize and analyze everything (very non-tech sounding, I know).

“Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement. If you can't measure something, you can't understand it. If you can't understand it, you can't control it. If you can't control it, you can't improve it.”

The quote is specifically about business, but the concept is universal. In the case of this article, Ivan Gayton is interested in controlling disease & improving health. He needs to measure the population to understand the spread of disease.

Re: Finding the 'invisible' millions who are not on maps

#43

Post by heisbsissi »

sojournerc wrote: post #39
heisbsissi wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another example of a virtue signaling disguised as criticism of virtue signaling.

It's a criticism of the colonialist attitude that we must save the "savage" from themselves. It's possible to honor other humans by leaving them alone.

I wished you honored me by not replying. Yes, the comment you wrote that is so broad as to be completely empty of any meaning is true. It's funny how you mention colonialism but all you people saying leave the primitives alone, isn't poverty and a shit life so romantic, not a single one of you mentioned what they want.

Re: Finding the 'invisible' millions who are not on maps

#44

Post by throwaway5752 »

PuffinBlue wrote: post #14
nelaboras wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point and purposefully misinterpreting this statement. Its not about tracking these people, its about allowing them to participate in today's world - from healthcare to mail.

There it is: the siren call of the proselytising do gooder. My advancements will succour thee and into the warm boosm of modernity embrace.

That's an unkind response to a valid counterpoint. None of us have any idea of these people are voluntarily off the grid or not, or if they were presented with the option of be tracked if they would. Maybe they wouldn't care to be tracked by a credit bureau, but would like a rescue mission to be mounted if there were a natural disaster that impacted them.

Re: Finding the 'invisible' millions who are not on maps

#45

Post by elgenie »

reaperducer wrote: post #33
b112 wrote: post #5

"It's shameful that we - as cartographers of the world - don't take enough interest to even know where they are. People are living and dying without appearing on any database." I know. Context. Context . There's nothing wrong with the above, with last sentence in context. But that last sentence makes me cringe, these days. The thought! The very thought that a human being may be anonymous, not counted, not known, not…

The younger people at work can't believe that I didn't have a Social Security number until I was 17. I only got one so I could get a passport. I didn't even have a name until I was a year old. When I mentioned that to my astonished wife, I did some research, and found that it was common in that era, and even today in many communities, not to name a child for a year or two. It used to be that you didn't have to be tab…

Until a few hundred years ago, a quarter of children died before reaching a year of age. Traditions of not naming children until they reach a certain age milestone are likely outgrowths of societies processing that reality, as opposed to attempts to stay out of databases.

Re: Finding the 'invisible' millions who are not on maps

#46

Post by renewiltord »

sojournerc wrote: post #39
heisbsissi wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another example of a virtue signaling disguised as criticism of virtue signaling.

It's a criticism of the colonialist attitude that we must save the "savage" from themselves. It's possible to honor other humans by leaving them alone.

If one hasn't worked in these places, one lacks the perspective to provide an informed criticism. If it helps one recognize a shortcoming in their world-model, I will share that being known to exist grants superior desired proximate results than being left alone.

I'm not trying to convince anyone here, merely broadcasting information that I am privy to which I suspect most here may not be.

Re: Finding the 'invisible' millions who are not on maps

#47

Post by cmehdy »

reaperducer wrote: post #34
nelaboras wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point and purposefully misinterpreting this statement. Its not about tracking these people, its about allowing them to participate in today's world - from healthcare to mail.

My rights, citizenship, and entitlements are not determined by a number assigned to me. They were assigned by law at the time of my birth.

Where I am a citizen (France) those documents have had a complicated history of being mandatory (for foreigners first, to control them), then since 1955 non-compulsory. Yet, Police forces can decide to control your identity in public and if you have no means to prove it to them they are allowed to detain you until "verified" (whatever that means)[0]. Of course, not having an ID card or similar document is also preventing you from having access to unemployment services, voting/being voted in, pass exams, being registered at a bank, traveling, etc.[1]

Effectively, some citizenship rights, some entitlements, and to some extent some rights can be set aside due to not having a document that isn't compulsory. Yep..

[0] in French: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1036

[1] in French: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F11601

Re: Finding the 'invisible' millions who are not on maps

#48

Post by gallegojaime »

b112 wrote: post #5

"It's shameful that we - as cartographers of the world - don't take enough interest to even know where they are. People are living and dying without appearing on any database." I know. Context. Context . There's nothing wrong with the above, with last sentence in context. But that last sentence makes me cringe, these days. The thought! The very thought that a human being may be anonymous, not counted, not known, not…

It is detrimental for any country not to have a system that identifies people and stores where they live. It is a basic pillar of how the government can make people accountable for committing crimes and not paying taxes.

Re: Finding the 'invisible' millions who are not on maps

#49

Post by nitrogen »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #18
PuffinBlue wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There it is: the siren call of the proselytising do gooder. My advancements will succour thee and into the warm boosm of modernity embrace.

I think this specifically relates to a slightly different problem, which is domain experts viewing their domain as being much more important than it actually is. There’s no reason at all to presume that a cartographer would have anything insightful to say about anything aside from cartography. Society has vested interests in many different areas, but cartographers can only be relied upon to have an interest in furthe…

I don't know, part of me agrees that specialization can lead to shortsightedness, but part of me also feels like this siloing of knowledge and siloing of influence is a way to divide and conquer, ensuring that only a select few have any say in society's direction.

Re: Finding the 'invisible' millions who are not on maps

#50

Post by sojournerc »

renewiltord wrote: post #46
sojournerc wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a criticism of the colonialist attitude that we must save the "savage" from themselves. It's possible to honor other humans by leaving them alone.

If one hasn't worked in these places, one lacks the perspective to provide an informed criticism. If it helps one recognize a shortcoming in their world-model, I will share that being known to exist grants superior desired proximate results than being left alone. I'm not trying to convince anyone here, merely broadcasting information that I am privy to which I suspect most here may not be.

What type of work are you doing?

In my youth I was a very zealous Christian, and went on mission trips to Peru, South Africa, Honduras, and Mexico.

When I reflect back on those times I feel ashamed of my assumptions about the people we were trying to "save". I am now hyper-sensitive to the idea that some ways of living are qualitatively "better" than others.

Certainly in South Africa, around Johannesburg the poverty I witnessed in their "townships" was truly painful, but that itself was caused by colonialism, and rough history of apartheid.

The dead sibling comment to yours does make a point, we shouldn't assume these cultures (OP cultures - not mapped, not tracked) don't want to adopt some of modernity's benefits, but we also shouldn't assume that they do.

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