Earlier quoted context omitted.
If it is going to be utterly useless as easily as you claim, then it should be easy for the sixteen advertising agencies to prove that it will be utterly useless and that advertisers should push back against Apple and their new warning.
You have an unfortunate view that the ad attribution business is predicated on rational choices by advertisers. It’s more similar to investment management business. You could likewise say it’ll be easy for competitors to prove a firm is having bad quarters of portfolio underperformance, yet firms with bad track records consistently keep getting new business. Why is that? The underlying business proposition is more li…
Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking
111–120 of 229 posts
Re: Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don’t think it is dishonest - it is more interesting that Google is anti-privacy, everyone already knows this about facebook. Additionally Google is nearly 2x the size of facebook so it takes precedence. You can’t disclose everything in a headline so you lead with what you can.
Since when did the HN crowd start being apologists for clickbait and purposeful omission?
And why is it done? Because it has been proven to work. They make more money with clickbait titles.
Personally, it's simply a windmill I'm no longer willing to tilt against.
And it appears that nothing was purposefully omitted from the article itself, so I'm definitely not willing to tilt against this.
Re: Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking
#113It is interesting. Apple is trying to position itself as more privacy friendly suggesting that the tide may be finally turning. It is difficult for me to believe that they would do it without customer demographic suggesting their user base places some value on it.
As has been said before - it is kinda hilarious to see people suggest Apple is privacy minded for marketing purposes because 5-7 years ago when they were privacy minded people said it would be a huge competitive disadvantage because users didn’t care.
Re: Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking
#114I see a resurgence in marketing similar to Mad Men: where firms don’t have access to highly personalized data, and eventually, will actually have to be creative, instead of just using algorithms parameterized with user tracking/profile data
i can't imagine how somebody could see the creative process in Mad Men and think that's something to be emulated. It's a bunch of privileged rich people (ad execs) coming up with ideas that they think are clever, and the only criteria for whether or not those ideas are good is if other privileged rich people (client company execs) agree. There's no objective measures of success, just a bunch of people patting each ot…
Re: Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There’s also ad agencies not backed by Facebook or Google, but they’re not in the title either. Yes, and this is why the reporting is dishonest - it's feels like it's there to smear one company in the title instead of actually disclosing to us who the people are.
I don’t think it is dishonest - it is more interesting that Google is anti-privacy, everyone already knows this about facebook. Additionally Google is nearly 2x the size of facebook so it takes precedence. You can’t disclose everything in a headline so you lead with what you can.
Nearly two times the size so we can make up a story of selected truths?
Re: Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking
#116This ends when the origin site starts proxying requests to the ad aggregators via the site-native domain.
Re: Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
You have an unfortunate view that the ad attribution business is predicated on rational choices by advertisers. It’s more similar to investment management business. You could likewise say it’ll be easy for competitors to prove a firm is having bad quarters of portfolio underperformance, yet firms with bad track records consistently keep getting new business. Why is that? The underlying business proposition is more li…
I am confused. Advertising either works sufficiently well or it doesn’t. If it does work sufficiently well, then that means that it brings in more money than it costs. If targeted advertising works better than generic advertising, then targeted advertising brings in more than generic advertising. And vice versa. If advertising using privacy-protecting statistical methods works just as well, then again it should show…
I’ll give an example from a real experience I worked on before. A client was a large haircut chain and they gave us a data set of individuals that had received a specific ad campaign from them via a loyalty program (so it had a variety of demographic and customer history data).
When we used the transactions data on this cohort to measure specific lift in the ad campaign, it was hugely negative - we thought there must be some kind of bug in the code, stressed out late nights coding and sanity checking everything and finding no issues that could explain it.
Our internal managers said we cannot go back to the client and ask for details or anything until we fix the negative lift because “negative lift isn’t actually possible in real advertising.” (Literal quote from an experienced manager in a well-known advertising analytics firm - I even showed him plenty of research out of Facebook, Google and academia disproving it, but it was totally taboo to mention negative lift).
Finally after some agonizing weeks we had no choice but to go back to the client and ask them to explain the full mechanics of their ad delivery, how people were targeted, to see if there was some bias or something we had no way to account for.
And of course - they told us all these individuals had been given a physical coupon as they were leaving from a haircut. OMG! The physical mechanics of a haircut means you are obviously not coming back for another one for say 3-4 weeks on average, and you also won’t have perfect customer retention, so basically there is no way this kind of campaign can produce positive lift unless you build a statistical model that successfully controls for the built in customer churn and the mechanical delay period before the ad treatment could possibly causally effect people’s next haircut choice.
This is just a drop in the bucket of strange things advertisers do. Often they won’t tell you targeting details like this, because they believe their method of targeting (even as simple as a coupon for loyalty rewards members) is some type of proprietary technique. This gets really really bad with firms that run their own digital advertising. If they are targeting “upper income people who just bought a BMW” via The Trade Desk, that’ll hugely skew any attribution modeling if they refuse to tell you they did that. A ton of the quant work of ad attribution is trying to automatically control for as many of these glaring omissions from the client as you can, since they often lie, refuse to tell you, or are actually wrong about the targeting they believed they used.
In short, measuring whether it was the ad’s effect that led to that macro increase or decrease in revenue is no easier than the general problem of causal inference from non-random trial data lacking clean splits, and often is much harder.
Re: Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking
#118> The group of European marketing firms said the pop-up warning and the limited ability to customize it still carries “a high risk of user refusal.” If you’re doing something and you know users are going to refuse to let you do it if they have the choice, don’t do it. Apple will give them a choice soon enough.
More importantly, that should be a sign that you know that you currently aren't obtaining informed consent, and should be thankful that Apple is saving you from the massive GDPR fines you should be getting (if only enforcement would actually happen).
GDPR's requirements are pretty clear in this regard and personalisation for advertising can't be a legitimate interest. Every business in the advertising community has seeked legal counseling regarding GDPR, make no mistake about it. They simply hope that they'll be ignored for long enough.
> if only enforcement would actually happen
It does happen. Maybe not as fast as people would like, investigations and lawsuits take a while, data protection authorities are probably understaffed. Google was fined multiple times already — and they might take this as the cost of doing business, but sooner or later they will be hit with that maximum 4% of global profits if they don't adapt and they are adapting.
Re: Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking
#119> The group of European marketing firms said the pop-up warning and the limited ability to customize it still carries “a high risk of user refusal.” If you’re doing something and you know users are going to refuse to let you do it if they have the choice, don’t do it. Apple will give them a choice soon enough.
> Apple will give them a choice soon enough. And hopefully one not reliant on so many dark patterns. The OneTrust opt-outs are the worst (and don't even work! which must be against the california consumer privacy act). On my iphone in safari: say I'm cooking dinner and go to epicurious.com. Greeted with the now-standard opt-out banner at the bottom. 1. Click the "Do not sell my advertising" 2. Greeted with a giant Co…
Re: Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking
#120> Sixteen marketing associations, some of which are backed by Facebook Inc (FB.O) and Alphabet Inc’s (GOOGL.O) Google, faulted Apple for not adhering to an ad-industry system for seeking user consent under European privacy rules. How did this turn into "Google-backed groups"?! Where's Facebook in the title? Is there no attempt at unbiased reporting anymore?