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EU safety agency suspends Pakistani airlines' European authorisation

reuters.com

121–130 of 173 posts

Re: EU safety agency suspends Pakistani airlines' European authorisation

#121
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pilots have trained for years on flying in general and the specific performance characteristics of their aircraft. Controllers on the other hand has years of training about traffic patterns, communications, managing airspace, etc. Most controllers are not pilots, although a significant number are, even those are not likely to be flying around A320s recreationally. Needless to say they deal with thousands of types of…

The accident report confirms that neither the pilots nor controllers followed established procedures. This is not simply my idle speculation. The plane was not on the proper published approach for the airport. The controller attempted to give vectors to the aircraft to give it room to descend. The pilot declined to follow the instructions (possible violation). At this point, in my opinion, the controller should have…

The pilots busted their approach clearance. ATC could certainly have rescinded their landing clearance and ordered a go-around.

That said, ATC's responsibility is to keep planes from hitting each other and maintain an orderly flow of aircraft. They are not any way responsible for the safety of the flight. That is what the second pilot and all of the automated alarms are for. The crew just ignored all of them.

It takes a basic standard of professionalism to fly a jet airliner, and unfortunately neither of the crew members on this flight had it. The approach was so bad that they were above the maximum gear extension speed when they tried to put the gear down, and so the Airbus refused to do it, and continuously yelled at them that it was doing this, but somehow they failed to notice.

Monitoring airspeed on approach is about the most basic thing a pilot does, and if you're off on speed and/or altitude by much less than these guys were, the absolutely clear requirement is to go around and try again (before you slam the engines on the ground and destroy them).

Re: EU safety agency suspends Pakistani airlines' European authorisation

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not how ATC works - atc ALREADY went beyond what you normally see w their suggestions for a go around. ATC is focused on traffic (keeping it separated), pilots are in charge of flying their planes. In fact communicating with ATC is low on list of things to do when their are problems. Priority is aviate, navigate then communicate. And these controllers went above and beyond w their warnings already

The accident report indicates that ATC also didn't follow procedures, so no, ATC did not go above and beyond. The main criticism in the report seems to be that they did not report the lack of landing gear or the subsequent engine strike back to the aircraft. My criticism, having listened to some of the recording, is that ATC were not more insistent in their instructions. Every other ATC recording I've listened to, AT…

The crew was never in contact with the tower controller that was in a position to see that gear were not down, or that the aircraft had landed on its engines.

For reasons that are not clearly explained (probably everything happening too fast and muddled), they remained in contact with approach during the landing after the approach controller got their landing clearance from tower on the phone.

Tower did report the gear-up landing to approach, but approach did not relay to the crew.

Re: EU safety agency suspends Pakistani airlines' European authorisation

#123
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only on paper. Let's face it if the pilots weren't flying intercepts they'd need to be flying training missions. Anyway, the sunk cost of buying, maintaining and operating fighter jets is so high that the marginal cost of a mission is a bit of a wash.

>Let's face it if the pilots weren't flying intercepts they'd need to be flying training missions Is this really the case? Are there training missions 24/7? If not, does flying an intercept cause a future training mission to be canceled?

No, but if you need to flow so many hours per month to maintain currency, flying a mission still counts towards that. So every hour spent flying a mission is an hour that doesn’t need to be spent flying to maintain currency.

Re: EU safety agency suspends Pakistani airlines' European authorisation

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The accident report confirms that neither the pilots nor controllers followed established procedures. This is not simply my idle speculation. The plane was not on the proper published approach for the airport. The controller attempted to give vectors to the aircraft to give it room to descend. The pilot declined to follow the instructions (possible violation). At this point, in my opinion, the controller should have…

So, having twice ignored the ATC instruction to turn left to 180 away from the approach, you think there is a good reason to believe they would've heeded a direction to go around? If ATC is to blame in this, it is primarily in excessive deference to the PIC.

No I don't think there is a good reason to believe they would have heeded a direction to go around. That doesn't mean that the direction should not have been given.

If ATC is to blame in this, it is primarily in excessive deference to the PIC.

My point, exactly, though it sounds like there may have been other irregularities in the procedures followed.

Re: EU safety agency suspends Pakistani airlines' European authorisation

#125
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by allowing a reduced 2.5nm separation Rather alarming to read that as nano-meters briefly!

I did, too, but I still don't get it. Is it a typo for "min" (as in minutes) ?

nm is "nautical miles". A "nautical mile" is a unit that feels more natural to people concerned with the globe shape of the Earth than the conventional mile (of 1609.34 metres) because it was equivalent to one minute of latitude.

Today it's just defined as 1852 metres.

Re: EU safety agency suspends Pakistani airlines' European authorisation

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The accident report indicates that ATC also didn't follow procedures, so no, ATC did not go above and beyond. The main criticism in the report seems to be that they did not report the lack of landing gear or the subsequent engine strike back to the aircraft. My criticism, having listened to some of the recording, is that ATC were not more insistent in their instructions. Every other ATC recording I've listened to, AT…

The crew was never in contact with the tower controller that was in a position to see that gear were not down, or that the aircraft had landed on its engines. For reasons that are not clearly explained (probably everything happening too fast and muddled), they remained in contact with approach during the landing after the approach controller got their landing clearance from tower on the phone. Tower did report the ge…

Yes, it sure sounds like things got screwed up. Which is my entire point in this surprisingly controversial thread.

Re: EU safety agency suspends Pakistani airlines' European authorisation

#127
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Let's face it if the pilots weren't flying intercepts they'd need to be flying training missions Is this really the case? Are there training missions 24/7? If not, does flying an intercept cause a future training mission to be canceled?

I dont think this nitpicking achieves anything, his overall point stands - we have hundreds of military jets and pilots with fuck all to do (fortunately). How many intercepts are there, one every few months? It makes no material difference against the backdrop of training and eqipment used in a regular business as usual.

> I dont think this nitpicking achieves anything, his overall point stands - we have hundreds of military jets and pilots with fuck all to do (fortunately). How many intercepts are there, one every few months? It makes no material difference against the backdrop of training and eqipment used in a regular business as usual.

Maybe stores should stop hiring security guards in towns where the police don't have much to do. The cops are just sitting around anyway, right?

Re: EU safety agency suspends Pakistani airlines' European authorisation

#128
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by allowing a reduced 2.5nm separation Rather alarming to read that as nano-meters briefly!

I did, too, but I still don't get it. Is it a typo for "min" (as in minutes) ?

Nautical miles

Re: EU safety agency suspends Pakistani airlines' European authorisation

#129
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont think this nitpicking achieves anything, his overall point stands - we have hundreds of military jets and pilots with fuck all to do (fortunately). How many intercepts are there, one every few months? It makes no material difference against the backdrop of training and eqipment used in a regular business as usual.

> I dont think this nitpicking achieves anything, his overall point stands - we have hundreds of military jets and pilots with fuck all to do (fortunately). How many intercepts are there, one every few months? It makes no material difference against the backdrop of training and eqipment used in a regular business as usual. Maybe stores should stop hiring security guards in towns where the police don't have much to do…

Cops don't have to make flight hours, fighter pilots do.

Re: EU safety agency suspends Pakistani airlines' European authorisation

#130
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure where is this coming from ... I reported the statement as it is .. the thing to worry about is this : The crew was overconfident and not focussed.

But how does the captain's last words tell you anything about his focus or confidence? There seems to be no reason to quote those words.

Its right there in the sentence if you go past your own interpretation of the sentence ..

"The crew was overconfident and not focussed"

Because they were talking about Corona and ignored the instructions .. Why are you so fixed by the use of word "Allah" .. I really dont see how it should bother anyone

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