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MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

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Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#791

Post by naruvimama »

bastawhiz wrote: post #659
naruvimama wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swastika is yet another example of "western universalism", it has a relatively recent negative connotation in Europe & US. Whereas for Asians, native Americans & for much of the ancient world it has entirely different meanings.

> it has a relatively recent negative connotation in Europe & US Seventeen million people died in the Holocaust. That number is larger than the dollar amount that many of the companies on this website raise. That's more people than you'll meet in your entire lifetime, perhaps more than you'll _see_ in your lifetime. This is the population of New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Houston put together. Those people were…

Origin and delibrate mistranslation to swastika

https://www.facebook.com/upwordindia/videos/2662610620694569...

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#792

Post by luckylion »

acdha wrote: post #573
luckylion wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are still free to pick any one of thousands of other options and you are free, even encouraged, read their terms before signing any contract. Right, again, there aren't thousands of other options. If you want to host your site, you need a domain. That limits yourself to a hand full of registrars. And you need somebody to transmit traffic, if you hold any kind of controversial opinion, you need DDOS-protection.…

There are thousands of hosting options: don’t forget that many companies offer hosting under various customer domains as well as your own. If you want your own domain you can check any company on this list: https://www.icann.org/registrar-reports/accreditation-qualif... Similarly, network capacity and servers are available from many companies around the world. If your content is so toxic that you can’t find anyone in…

> If your content is so toxic that you can’t find anyone in the world to provide even basic network connectivity, it might be time to ask whether you’re using “controversial” as a synonym for “illegal”.

Ah, the good old "only criminals have something to hide" aka "all speech that is good is free, if your speech is suppressed, it's probably evil, and evil speech should be suppressed, because it's evil". That's really not a sensible approach imho.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#793

Post by naruvimama »

jeegsy wrote: post #358
rsynnott wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume Microsoft never allowed, say, swastikas. There's no reasonable expectation that you are able to spread racist propaganda in a car racing game (or for that matter in an actual car race; I think those tend to have very strict rules around decoration). I can see an _argument_ that Twitter, say, should be forced to pander to racists. I don't buy that argument, mind you, but I can at least see the thought process…

I'm assuming that swastikas have much more universal unpopularity than the confederacy flag. Heck, in 2020, MS just voted to remove confederate symbol from the state flag. SO I dont think the comparison is all there. My concern with these sort of deplatforming moves while understandable, is they tend to drive these bigoted ideas underground. So maybe they cant express it publicly but boy, do they find other ways to d…

Please stop calling it a swastika

https://www.facebook.com/upwordindia/videos/2662610620694569...

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#794

Post by skinkestek »

Smoosh wrote: post #584
skinkestek wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bloke (and a less privileged bloke at that, 75% non white according to himself) was recently fired because someone had shot a photo of him resting his hand out the window of a company truck in what lpoked line an OK hand. It was discussed here a few days ago. Stop firing the innocent or something, from the Atlantic.

oh, come on. "resting his hand ... what looked like" ??? Wasn't the story that people in another car taunted him and urged him to make the symbol, and they recorded it when he did? He may have not known what the meaning was (I believe that is what he claimed) but that is an entirely different defense to make than "I wasn't doing it, it just looked a bit like it".

Point is it seems he did it after they kept following him and trying to get him to do it, it seems the guys in the other car even did it first to try to get him to mimic it.

And that is before we talk about the problem with firing someone over this in the first place.

Context is important.

I have had to tell my kids more than once that when an elderly person use their middle finger to point at something it isn't offensive because they grew up in a time when it didn't matter. That elderly person sure doesn't mean "F* you" as they are pointing their middle finger horizontally towards something while saying "look there".

In fact I think we all do something every single day that would be considered offensive by someone at some point.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#795

Post by odshoifsdhfs »

bastawhiz wrote: post #659
naruvimama wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swastika is yet another example of "western universalism", it has a relatively recent negative connotation in Europe & US. Whereas for Asians, native Americans & for much of the ancient world it has entirely different meanings.

> it has a relatively recent negative connotation in Europe & US Seventeen million people died in the Holocaust. That number is larger than the dollar amount that many of the companies on this website raise. That's more people than you'll meet in your entire lifetime, perhaps more than you'll _see_ in your lifetime. This is the population of New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Houston put together. Those people were…

The crusades killed around 3 million. Can we ban the cross as well from everywhere? Please?

The Mao era probably around 75 million. Lets ban any symbol related to them (sickle and hammer, red flags, etc).

(ps: I am not in favor of the swastika, just don't like how a symbol can be used for thousands of years, hijacked by some pricks, and now everyone can't use it anymore, and the people that have an emotional connection to it have to censor themselves. Also, isn't the buddhist one reversed from the Nazi one? Mirrored? Which makes it even worse as you are using a similar but not exactly the same symbol and ignorant folks can't spot the difference)

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#796

Post by LocalH »

Smoosh wrote: post #606
pmiller2 wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's terrible that people can be fired for literally no reason in this country. This wouldn't have happened in a country that has any semblance of workers' rights.

"Literally no reason" ?? He was recorded flashing a white power symbol while driving a (presumably liveried) company truck. Now I think, after hearing his story, that a public apology and explanation would have been enough. But he brought the company into disrepute. Firing him seems to be a valid option they could take. I personally think that raising awareness with a public apology and a statement from the company w…

Stop giving the racists power to coopt innocent symbology. The swastika was virtually lost that way.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#797

Post by LocalH »

bastawhiz wrote: post #650
jeegsy wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm assuming that swastikas have much more universal unpopularity than the confederacy flag. Heck, in 2020, MS just voted to remove confederate symbol from the state flag. SO I dont think the comparison is all there. My concern with these sort of deplatforming moves while understandable, is they tend to drive these bigoted ideas underground. So maybe they cant express it publicly but boy, do they find other ways to d…

> I'm assuming that swastikas have much more universal unpopularity than the confederacy flag. Does the popularity of a racist symbol have any correlation with whether it should be suppressed? Swastikas were a lot more present in the 1940s but that doesn't mean they were less reprehensible. If a far-right group started using a brand-new symbol to signify their racist ideology, is it suddenly worth waiting for the sym…

Do you literally want to give the racists power to cherry pick from all of culture to take things that have existed for thousands of years and lock them away behind censorship?

If someone is specifically using the Nazi version of the swastika, then by all means handle it. But if it's the non-Nazi version, then why do people not get to reclaim it?

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#798

Post by monetus »

odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #789
breakbread wrote: post #649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife is a high school teacher and, until we had our first child, was also the swim team coach. Early last year she made a kid run laps after he low key photo-bombed the team picture by making the "Ok" symbol on one of his thighs. Then she gets an angry text message from the kid's mother who believed her son was being punished specifically for making the "ok" symbol. This woman had found a picture of my wife on Fac…

I honestly don't know what the 'ok symbol' is in relation to racism/whatever. In my country I don't think it is a thing and I stopped following silly things on the internet. BUT even if it is a racist symbol/white supremacy/whatever, your wife is still in the wrong. (I am assuming the symbol is not illegal) Your wife punished a kid for making a symbol she disagrees with, heck, you could even say by making a political…

In the US, showing the ok symbol, usually upside down, is a kid's game. If an American child shows that to you below their waist, and you witness it, then they have 'earned' the right to punch your shoulder. That kid probably punched his whole class.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#799

Post by iamstupidsimple »

ceejayoz wrote: post #656
iamstupidsimple wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why was this guy[0] sued by the Scottish Government for a joke, offensive as it may be? Prosecution specifically labeled intent to cause offense as the crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Meechan

He was fined for training a dog to make the Nazi salute to the phrase "Do you wanna gas the Jews?". I'm 100% fine with slipping that far down the slope.

Do you realise what comedy is? This guy was a comedian who had performed on stage, so he certainly fits the bill. Think of all the current celebs who have said far worse on stage.

I'm British, here, almost all good humour is targeting/focusing around some group in some way (e.g. Monty Python, Fawlty Towers). We call it black comedy because it's horrible out of context.

So, are you in favour of getting rid of comedy?

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#800

Post by generalk »

daenz wrote: post #701
generalk wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that would be an interesting thing to have, and the implementation of it would have to solve a lot of issues (equal access to technology, etc) that need solving badly. I'm also glad we finally got to the actual thing you want to see change. Curious though: what would having this space solve?

>what would having this space solve? Is this a trick question? It guarantees that any marginalized people has access to communicate easily and freely to the general public, and it cannot be denied by anyone.

No tricks, but I disagree with you here.

A government-run, publicly owned online communication platform has several problems that prevent it from being the utopia you expect.

1. What value does it actually provide that Twitter and Reddit and Tumblr (and even Facebook) don't provide? I've learned more about marginalized communities both locally and globally on Twitter than I have anywhere else. Seems that they have a pretty decent platform today.

2. It's existence doesn't mean those platforms go away, so it by itself doesn't stop Facebook from doing the ridiculous things it's doing today. Folks may choose to patronize those private platforms over using the thing you describe.

3. Economically disadvantaged folks won't have access to it without a separate set of programs to ensure every household is connected to the Internet at a reasonable speed, and that they have the tech required to access it. (COVID-19 has laid bare the economic disparity even in my relatively affluent school district.)

4. Are we talking "run by the US"? If so: globally, marginalized people may not be able to communicate there due to policies from our government (which we can over time theoretically control) or their governments (which we cannot.) If not: who runs it then?

5. I think you'll find that the US government routinely denies people speech. Police violently responding to peaceful protests around the country is just one example. The US would definitely have to control for speech that violates US law, such as SESTA/FOSTA.

6. This is all ignoring the fact that people are people, and even the best examples of online communities have examples of folks being rejected by the dominant voices in the community irrespective of the rules.

I think a public-owned online space is fascinating, but I don't think it'd be a magic bullet to solving these problems.

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