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Ios, Android, WP7 - who cares?

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Re: Ios, Android, WP7 - who cares?

#31

Post by stanleydrew »

leon_ wrote: post #24

> the web literally blew away the platform differences to something that is comparable to a flavor rather than a huge technical difference or advantage. yeah, web photoshop and web office are real alternatives ...

This isn't a particularly insightful comment, but I get your drift. The thing is, for the generation of teenagers and young adults, web-based software is actually relatively easier to use than native software because they grew up on the web. Even if you sacrifice some functionality using Google docs instead of Word, many people prefer the benefits of an instant-on, no-install, free, auto-syncing solution. So yeah, it is a viable alternative.

Re: Ios, Android, WP7 - who cares?

#32

Post by nupark »

qusiba wrote: post #18

My boss told me, you can not sell a web application on App Store, that's why we have to hire an iphone programmer to build a client app.

Your boss wasn't far off base. A web application is not a replacement for a native application, even if you bundle it up in a UIWebView and sell it through the app store.

My organization works in a variety of languages/runtimes, from ObjC to C to assembly to the JVM. We do web, mobile, server, and OS development -- whatever is needed.

I was in a meeting recently discussing complex image processing we had implemented in C++ using OpenCV. We considered OpenCV and C++ to be the best tools for the specific job at hand, which is why we chose them over the alternatives.

A life-long Flash developer -- who has a heavy investment in Flash remaining relevant in his organization -- chimed in to tell us that Flash can do the same thing, and there was no reason to use C++. In theory, we could have made Flash do our bidding, but it was the wrong tool for the job, and we quite intentionally didn't use it.

Web developers seem to apply the same logic as this Flash developer to the development of native apps. There's a much shorter description for this:

When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Re: Ios, Android, WP7 - who cares?

#33

Post by maxklein »

People don't seem to really understand the difference: a web app sits on a server. A native app is on the device. A web app will ALWAYS have a round trip time - the web is not instantaneous. So it will ALWAYS be slower than a locally run app, by its very definition.

Furthermore, a browser imposes buttons and bars on the application that it does not need. In a mobile app, space is at an extreme premium, and the space used up by the browser elements are needed.

If we solve these two problems, by making all web based apps download their logic to the client, and by disappearing the browser entirely, then that's a native app. It's running locally and it's independent of the browser.

Re: Ios, Android, WP7 - who cares?

#34

Post by nupark »

lapusta wrote: post #28
6ren wrote: post #21

As a question of fact, has the mainstream switched from apps to webapps on the desktop? e.g. for spreadsheets, word processors, text editors, photoshop, compilers. If not, then the argument becomes "I think B will happen because I think A will happen". One argument is that the main barrier to webapps is performance, and as soon as hardware gets fast enough, webapps will beat desktop apps. Firstly, there's a question…

How many NEW desktop apps have you installed recently? We obviously won't see Adobe, Autodesk and some other professional software developers moving their products to web anytime soon, but when we are talking about the new products - web is usually the winner. Look at Chrome and it's pace of innovation, check out the examples from Mozilla Demo Studio, could you imagine that working in all latest major browsers 3 year…

How many NEW desktop apps have you installed recently?

I don't install new desktop apps very often because my needs are already solved. I do nearly all my work in:

- Mail.app

- Xcode

- Eclipse

- TeXShop

- Terminal

- Chrome (JIRA, and browsing documents-not-webapps)

I'd prefer a native application for JIRA, but I haven't found a decent one yet.

Same is true for mobile, I don't see another space for innovation except improving web performance, integration & so on. Maybe you see some other directions where iPhone & Android can go?

I expect the iOS and Android platforms to continue to evolve their core libraries, providing significant additional functionality and features for use by mobile applications. Eventually that will slow as the mobile platforms mature.

I'd like to say that I expect the development of higher-level common platforms out of web browsers, but outside of (possibly) WebOS, this seems unlikely.

Compared to the web, iOS and Android have comprehensive platform APIs with consistent widgets and user experiences (iOS more than Android when it comes to consistency), support for multiple programming languages and runtimes, immediate access to platform vendor's APIs (playing video doesn't involve an browser vendors arguing over , etc.

Re: Ios, Android, WP7 - who cares?

#35

Post by gaiusparx »

People have been driving for web interface to rule them all for more than 10 years now. It will never happen in our life time. Those asking for web interface are mainly driving from tech management point of view, one development and interface for all devices and platforms. But consumers don't care and that's why the past few years we see the rise of native mobile interfaces. I see a future where native interface continues to rule, where the web is more the backend glues and data that network all together. Web interface might take a back seat when new generations user interface becomes standard. Touch has just become the standard, imagine a future with kinect like or advanced voice interface. Native interface on purpose build interface devices will have the opportunity to progress and advance the way we interface with the net and computer.

Re: Ios, Android, WP7 - who cares?

#36

Post by daleharvey »

maxklein wrote: post #33

People don't seem to really understand the difference: a web app sits on a server. A native app is on the device. A web app will ALWAYS have a round trip time - the web is not instantaneous. So it will ALWAYS be slower than a locally run app, by its very definition. Furthermore, a browser imposes buttons and bars on the application that it does not need. In a mobile app, space is at an extreme premium, and the space…

that is not the difference, web apps can run locally fine

1. Cache Manifests 2. Phonegap, Titanium, CouchDB, plain serving from the filesytem (+ a magnitude of other options)

Re: Ios, Android, WP7 - who cares?

#37

Post by emehrkay »

It does matter, especially when you have Microsoft crippling the web with their consistently outdated browsers. Just look at what WinPhone7 is running compared to everyone else's webkit-based solutions. Even when they get their ie9 on the phone it will still be behind the browsers in ios, android (including firefox and opera), and the newer blackberries.

We'll be writing if(ie) conditionals for a long time if people start buying winphone 7

Re: Ios, Android, WP7 - who cares?

#38

Post by stevemoy »

lapusta wrote: post #28
6ren wrote: post #21

As a question of fact, has the mainstream switched from apps to webapps on the desktop? e.g. for spreadsheets, word processors, text editors, photoshop, compilers. If not, then the argument becomes "I think B will happen because I think A will happen". One argument is that the main barrier to webapps is performance, and as soon as hardware gets fast enough, webapps will beat desktop apps. Firstly, there's a question…

How many NEW desktop apps have you installed recently? We obviously won't see Adobe, Autodesk and some other professional software developers moving their products to web anytime soon, but when we are talking about the new products - web is usually the winner. Look at Chrome and it's pace of innovation, check out the examples from Mozilla Demo Studio, could you imagine that working in all latest major browsers 3 year…

> How many NEW desktop apps have you installed recently?

I install (and uninstall) games pretty regularly. To me these have the potential to be the big differentiator. It will be interesting to see if we end up with fragmentation (think DS vs. PSP vs. iOS) or ports of most major releases as long as each platform has decent market share (Xbox 360 vs. PS3).

It seems that hardware-wise and market share-wise, we're trending towards seeing major releases on at least iOS and Android. What's interesting to me here is that (1) so far it seems like indie developers are playing a larger role on the mobile gaming scene, and they won't necessarily have the resources to do a launch on both platforms until their games become hits, and (2) for whatever reason it seems like the Android gaming market (and app market in general) is very anemic compared to iOS, despite having a large install base. (This is just my subjective opinion based on using an Android phone for the last few months.)

As a side note, I do agree that in general desktop OS choice is less important than it used to be, but I think that it's due more to the democratization of data than it is to the rise of web apps. Getting a Mac file to open on a friend's PC used to be pretty difficult for the average user.

Re: Ios, Android, WP7 - who cares?

#39

Post by daleharvey »

6ren wrote: post #21

As a question of fact, has the mainstream switched from apps to webapps on the desktop? e.g. for spreadsheets, word processors, text editors, photoshop, compilers. If not, then the argument becomes "I think B will happen because I think A will happen". One argument is that the main barrier to webapps is performance, and as soon as hardware gets fast enough, webapps will beat desktop apps. Firstly, there's a question…

Web Apps do not need to go and fetch from the internet every time you click a link.

There are lots of differenct ways web apps can be built without ever even touching the network

Re: Ios, Android, WP7 - who cares?

#40

Post by Qz »

maxklein wrote: post #33

People don't seem to really understand the difference: a web app sits on a server. A native app is on the device. A web app will ALWAYS have a round trip time - the web is not instantaneous. So it will ALWAYS be slower than a locally run app, by its very definition. Furthermore, a browser imposes buttons and bars on the application that it does not need. In a mobile app, space is at an extreme premium, and the space…

If we solve these two problems, by making all web based apps download their logic to the client, and by disappearing the browser entirely, then that's a native app. It's running locally and it's independent of the browser.

I agree with you on this, although the one quibble I can see is that part of the appeal of web apps has been the idea that you (the user) don't have to update them, because that all happens on the server side. This can be solved trivially of course by just having the client side app check it's origin server for updates whenever the user accesses it, but there's a possibility of that that could end up rather messy unless update management was a centralized part of the OS, rather than a free-for-all (Java Updater and Acrobat Updater, I'm looking at you!).

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