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MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

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Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#701

Post by daenz »

generalk wrote: post #586
daenz wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am arguing for a space online that is publicly owned, maintained by the government, easily accessible by your average person, with the same very few restrictions on free speech that exist in the real world.

I think that would be an interesting thing to have, and the implementation of it would have to solve a lot of issues (equal access to technology, etc) that need solving badly. I'm also glad we finally got to the actual thing you want to see change. Curious though: what would having this space solve?

>what would having this space solve?

Is this a trick question? It guarantees that any marginalized people has access to communicate easily and freely to the general public, and it cannot be denied by anyone.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#702

Post by fwip »

sukilot wrote: post #309
rsynnott wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume Microsoft never allowed, say, swastikas. There's no reasonable expectation that you are able to spread racist propaganda in a car racing game (or for that matter in an actual car race; I think those tend to have very strict rules around decoration). I can see an _argument_ that Twitter, say, should be forced to pander to racists. I don't buy that argument, mind you, but I can at least see the thought process…

That's an argument for banning swastikas, not banning anyone who displays a swastika. And before you say "come on, swastikas are pretty extreme", remember the moral panic we just went through when 4chan trolls convinced people that the OK hand sign was a "one-sided version ofna White Power" sign and got people fired from their jobs for making the sign.

Your metaphor would be better if white nationalists hadn't actually adopted it as a sign to identify each other.

Yes, it started as a joke/hoax. Then they started doing it sincerely.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#703

Post by cwhiz »

henriquez wrote: post #481
morley wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's the old saying that if you know nothing about it, the Civil War was about slavery; if you know a little about it, it was about state's rights; and if you know a lot about it, it was about slavery. The "states rights" trope was a deliberate attempt of a few Southern, revisionist historians to blunt their racist past. The truth is that the South seceded because their states wanted the right to hold slaves. http…

Yes I believe slavery was the straw that broke the camel’s back but it wasn’t the primary factor of conflict. Slavery and protecting the property of rich plantation owners was not the reason poor southern kids were fighting and killing their own family members. To completely dismiss the more prominent factors at play including states rights as “historical revisionism” is itself historical revisionism.

Reads these secession letters and tell me that slavery was not the primary factor.

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declarati...

States rights... to own slaves.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#704

Post by fwip »

jorvi wrote: post #682
soraminazuki wrote: post #221

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics. For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a…

> I think Snowden had a point when he said that the answer to bad speech is more speech, not censorship. Yes ! A lot of people get angry when you tell them that, but I think that people should be able to say vile, hateful things. Not because those things contribute anything meaningful to society, but the only way you can possibly have a chance to challenge the views of those people is by knowing that they have those…

Do you think that black people should debate the confederate flag in the marketplace of ideas of the Forza Motorsport Decal Upload form? When they see that the car next to them in a race is full of hateful symbols, they should reply by quickly going into their car customization screen and equipping their "BLM" decals?

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#705

Post by kube-system »

pathseeker wrote: post #599
kube-system wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't follow. It sounds like they know exactly what it is. In some places, you can be prevented from saying something that others do not want you to say.

>In some places, you can be prevented from saying something that others do not want you to say. Not really. The consequences in some places are just so severe that it might be one of the last things you say.

Yes, in some places communications can be intercepted and blocked by government authorities before being delivered. Or, people can be deprived of communication privileges until they prove themselves sympathetic to oppressors. Some others will spy on potential dissenters and remove them from society before they have a chance to speak.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#706

Post by krapp »

IncRnd wrote: post #697
krapp wrote: post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Swastika is a racist symbol across an entire hemisphere of this planet. The Nazi flag, itself, isn't racist minus the Swastika - in fact, when people want to graphically portray a Nazi analogue without offending people, they usually just use the flag with the Swastika swapped out for something else. The fact that it isn't racist in, say, China doesn't mean it also isn't racist when spray painted on a synagogue.

That's an intentional misrepresentation of what I wrote.

I don't believe it is. This is what you wrote, verbatim:

> While the Nazi flag may be a racist symbol, the Swastika, however, is not a racist symbol.

You deliberately distinguished between the Nazi flag and the Swastika, an element incorporated into the Nazi flag, and claimed that between the two, only the flag was racist.

And I'm merely pointing out that in the Western world the only part of the Nazi flag even considered racist is the Swastika.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#707

Post by 6nf »

gameswithgo wrote: post #605
soraminazuki wrote: post #221

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics. For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a…

> I think Snowden had a point when he said that the answer to bad speech is more speech, not censorship. Having grown up and seen the Internet come into being, I feel like all evidence suggests the opposite of that.

You believe censorship works?

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#708

Post by krapp »

6nf wrote: post #707
gameswithgo wrote: post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think Snowden had a point when he said that the answer to bad speech is more speech, not censorship. Having grown up and seen the Internet come into being, I feel like all evidence suggests the opposite of that.

You believe censorship works?

If it didn't work, no one would be opposed to it.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#709

Post by mynameisvlad »

lopmotr wrote: post #683
mynameisvlad wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paulchap literally said "as long as it's within the legal bounds of the ToS". Discrimination against race or another protected class falls outside of the "legal bounds of the ToS". They already accounted for the case you're trying to argue against.

Yes. Like I said, if the law allowed it, he would support racial discrimination too, according to his statement.

That's the most liberal reading of a statement I've heard in a long time.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#710

Post by soraminazuki »

tw04 wrote: post #673
soraminazuki wrote: post #221

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics. For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a…

> For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. With is why the KKK was allowed to run full page, front page ads in national newspapers 60 years ago. No? We’ve always allowed private companies to block content they deemed unworthy, r…

Ordinary people don't have the resources to run a newspaper ad, so it's not what I was referring to. I had things like your email and social media accounts in mind, where banning has consequences other than not being able to deliver hate speech.
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