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MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

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Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#601

Post by baddox »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #534
baddox wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that all symbols are their meaning are made up. To say "this gesture is a symbol of X" is to say "people made up that this gesture is a symbol of X."

It's a really odd social phenomenon. It's one thing to say "We don't like X and find it in poor taste. Please don't do that" I don't like it when folks say such things, but I understand it. Instead, what many folks seem to be saying is that based on one thing they can tell what the person is like inside . It's an amazingly-broad generalization and people seem to be enormously confident of themselves when they make it…

We're really just talking about deliberate communication here, and like with all communication, context is important. In general, the color of someone's clothes isn't communicating much, but it might be at a sporting event.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#602

Post by spoopyskelly »

gamblor956 wrote: post #489
Hamuko wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't exactly consider dropping two atomic bombs on top of hundreds of thousands of civilians an act of kindness. Americans also don't exactly apologize for their acts, still glorify their brutal heroes (and even people who fought against their own country). There's probably a whole laundry list of war crimes (and things that really should be war crimes) that the US has committed. And there are a lot of anti-Americ…

I don't exactly consider dropping two atomic bombs on top of hundreds of thousands of civilians an act of kindness. War used to be extremely brutal. Genghis Khan used to execute entire cities...even after they had surrendered. Hell, prior to WWII, civilian populations were still legally legitimate targets for military actions. It's a very modern development for war to be fought purely between recognized armed forces.…

> we set up memorials to our own bad acts as a nation so that we can't erase them from memory or hide from them.

They will all be hidden soon.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#603

Post by 8note »

norswap wrote: post #411
tedunangst wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the reverse even remotely close to true? If MS allowed confederate flags on cars, would the bigoted idea underground disappear?

I don't think "taking underground" is the right metaphor, but it intensifies polarization, and makes these people feel persecuted. It's not that they care about the flag that much for most of them. It's that suddenly, it's not even allowed anymore and they don't agree with that. Frankly, I couldn't care less about the confederate flag, but the thought process here is very relatable. And then these people vote. People…

I'd say the opposite; it's the openness in the first place that is polarizing.

The current polarization happened before Microsoft stopped letting you make racist cars

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#604

Post by krapp »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #596
softwaredoug wrote: post #281

I don’t see how you can make a good faith argument the confederate flag is any different from a swastika. Both represent institutions built solely for racist motives and the subjugation of another race.

>I don’t see how you can make a good faith argument the confederate flag is any different from a swastika The stars'n'bars is a relevant part of automotive history, see the Duke brothers, history of NASCAR, etc. Banning players who display it is similiar to banning players who stick swastikas or iron crosses on their Panthers and Tigers in a video game about tanks. Culturally convenient or not it is part of the histo…

>The stars'n'bars is a relevant part of automotive history, see the Duke brothers, history of NASCAR, etc.

NASCAR has banned the flag too[1], and the modern General Lee[0] hasn't had it since 2015. And the point of these games isn't to simulate car culture or history, it's a racing game, so it's not even relevant. We're literally just talking about skins in a video game, here.

[0]https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/10/us/nascar-bans-confederate-fl...

[1]https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2020/06/16/bubba-watson-says-l...

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#605

Post by gameswithgo »

soraminazuki wrote: post #221

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics. For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a…

> I think Snowden had a point when he said that the answer to bad speech is more speech, not censorship.

Having grown up and seen the Internet come into being, I feel like all evidence suggests the opposite of that.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#606

Post by Smoosh »

pmiller2 wrote: post #517
DevKoala wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also weaponized the outrage and ruined the lives of innocent people. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/stop-firin... I don’t understand how people can justify the collateral damage; it is going too far.

Yeah, it's terrible that people can be fired for literally no reason in this country. This wouldn't have happened in a country that has any semblance of workers' rights.

"Literally no reason" ?? He was recorded flashing a white power symbol while driving a (presumably liveried) company truck.

Now I think, after hearing his story, that a public apology and explanation would have been enough. But he brought the company into disrepute. Firing him seems to be a valid option they could take. I personally think that raising awareness with a public apology and a statement from the company would have been better for everyone, but so often, a company's first response is to cover their ass. Or maybe they didn't believe him, while the reporter did? I wasn't there and can never know.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#607

Post by iamstupidsimple »

causality0 wrote: post #347
soraminazuki wrote: post #221

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics. For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a…

Unfortunately no part of the internet is a public venue. There is no internet street corner, no "common carrier" internet phone company, no internet post office. Everything you do is subject to the whims of shareholder value. If tomorrow enough people decided left-handed people are the scum of the earth to affect Youtube's bottom line you'd start seeing left-handed videos demonetized. If enough people decided left-ha…

I disagree. The internet is a place and it's special - far greater than the sum of it's constituent parts (servers, networking gear, websites, etc..) might all be privately owned, but the concept of the network itself is free and shared.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#608

Post by riffraff »

FireBeyond wrote: post #519
donmcronald wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the first time I've heard of that. I can just imagine being somewhere loud and giving the ok / perfect symbol to a friend across the room and then being called a racist. Damn, that's scary.

If that's what you got out of this, I'm not sure what to say. I even used the SCUBA shop, which is next door, for reference. No-one that I've seen has advocated that the OK sign be abandoned for divers. I've been mid mouthful at a restaurant when a server has asked how my food is and I've made this sign and not been called a racist. However, should I and half a dozen of my buddies, armed an in full tactical gear, sta…

but things can change to make the OK sign tabu too, can't they?

We are saying that if you use a potentially racist sign (hand OK) in real life it's not a big deal, since you're not using it in conjunction with other racist stuff.

At the same time you cannot use another potentially racist sign (the confederate flag), even if you were just trying to make a videogame version of "The Dukes of Hazzard" and are not trying to associate it with white supremacists.

I mean, I assume the confederare flag was not too problematic at some point, but now it is, so likely the OK sign will become problematic too.

Think of the "pepe" meme, which is now an alt-right thing and can't be used anymore in a neutral way!

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#609

Post by acdha »

pathseeker wrote: post #583
acdha wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that this history is rooted in racism: the Confederacy was founded to preserve the institution of slavery (people who claim otherwise need to read the states’ own declarations) and the Army of Northern Virginia battle flag most commonly displayed has a long history from the Jim Crow era of being used to intimidate free Black people. Just as someone proud of being German has a wide variety of symbols th…

So the problem is you are conflating southern pride (pride in the culture) with the confederacy. Many people in the south used to view the confederate flag as representative of southern pride (iced tea on a porch while complaining about the heat).

If people want to display pride in the south without supporting the Confederacy, they can do so without using the most iconic symbol of the Confederacy. Nobody has to wonder if you’re not entirely honest when you say your southern pride isn’t secretly about race if you use, say, a Georgia peach or a tobacco barn.
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