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MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

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Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#341

Post by aka1234 »

sukilot wrote: post #309
rsynnott wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume Microsoft never allowed, say, swastikas. There's no reasonable expectation that you are able to spread racist propaganda in a car racing game (or for that matter in an actual car race; I think those tend to have very strict rules around decoration). I can see an _argument_ that Twitter, say, should be forced to pander to racists. I don't buy that argument, mind you, but I can at least see the thought process…

That's an argument for banning swastikas, not banning anyone who displays a swastika. And before you say "come on, swastikas are pretty extreme", remember the moral panic we just went through when 4chan trolls convinced people that the OK hand sign was a "one-sided version ofna White Power" sign and got people fired from their jobs for making the sign.

> "That's an argument for banning swastikas, not banning anyone who displays a swastika."

If you don't ban the person displaying the swastika, how can you possibly enforce banning swastikas? There must be a consequence for displaying the offending symbol, otherwise the rule is toothless.

You remove the swastika, and the person just replaces it. What then? Just keep removing it and hoping the Nazi/edgelord/'troll' will get tired of replacing the swastika? Trying to win a battle of attrition with a bad-faith actor is not an effective way to enforce rules.

> "remember the moral panic we just went through when 4chan trolls convinced people that the OK hand sign was a "one-sided version ofna White Power" sign and got people fired from their jobs for making the sign."

"Remember when 4chan 'trolls' said the OK hand sign was a white power sign and then white supremacists started using the OK hand sign as a white power sign?" --- There, I fixed it for you.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#342

Post by UncleMeat »

ta17711771 wrote: post #20
UncleMeat wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, that'd be a good outcome for the confederate flag. It is a hate symbol and exists almost exclusively to project hatred towards black people.

> To me, that'd be a good outcome for the confederate flag. Where does it end?

The confederate flag maybe?

We get to pick each time. "Well, we banned the confederate flag, better prevent white people from listening to rap" isn't the sort of thing that happens. Each adjustment to social norms is an independent choice that our society gets to make.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#343

Post by beervirus »

soraminazuki wrote: post #221

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics. For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a…

> However, things do change, and it's not always for the better. There are worrying trends of growing authoritarianism worldwide, and I think now is a good time to consider how censorship could be used against us.

Very true. For example, there are definitely places where antisemitism is becoming more and more socially acceptable.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#344

Post by filleduchaos »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #310
rsynnott wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume Microsoft never allowed, say, swastikas. There's no reasonable expectation that you are able to spread racist propaganda in a car racing game (or for that matter in an actual car race; I think those tend to have very strict rules around decoration). I can see an _argument_ that Twitter, say, should be forced to pander to racists. I don't buy that argument, mind you, but I can at least see the thought process…

The Nazi flag is inarguably racist propaganda. The Confederate flag, however, has for decades been a symbol of southern pride for many people. I read somewhere recently that over 40% see it as a symbol of heritage more than racism.

Reminder that the Confederate battle flag was in use for less than five years and solely as an icon of a conflict that was very much about the (rather racist) keeping of chattel slaves.

Before trotting out the "it's a symbol of heritage" line, ask yourself exactly what that heritage is.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#345

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

rsynnott wrote: post #332
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nazi flag is inarguably racist propaganda. The Confederate flag, however, has for decades been a symbol of southern pride for many people. I read somewhere recently that over 40% see it as a symbol of heritage more than racism.

I'm sure if you did a poll in Germany you'd find a non-zero percentage of people who'd answer something similar RE the Nazi flag, with the right wording. Nothing like 40%; that particular variety of lost-cause-ism isn't as common as the confederate stuff in the US, but, there are certainly people who would claim that it was something more benign than it is generally perceived. That's why it's illegal in Germany in th…

My point is that what is considered "racist propaganda" is extremely context sensitive. Germany banned the Nazi flag to avoid the exact ambiguity that has occurred in our country, but we need to accept that this ambiguity has occurred here in the States. Most people who use the flag don't use it to be racist. That changes the situation when compared to Germany.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#346

Post by notahacker »

catalogia wrote: post #230
i_am_proteus wrote: post #4

Interesting that the Japanese rising sun flag is mentioned alongside the swastika and the stars and bars; the rising sun flag remains in contemporary use by the Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force.

For that matter, the swastika was still used by the Finnish Air Force until quite recently. I thought to double check this before posting and discovered news articles about the change posted within the past hour. https://www.thetelegraph.com/news/article/Finnish-Air-Force-...

This one always seemed odd considering the Finnish military had particularly strong reasons to drop the symbol having ended up both fighting for and owing reparations to the Allies, and without any lingering affection for their alliance of convenience with Germany or sympathy with Nazi thought. If the Air Force didn't like the symbols the Defence Force switched to in 1945, substituting the Tursaansydän for the original swastika would have been an easy change to make...

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#347

Post by causality0 »

soraminazuki wrote: post #221

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics. For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a…

Unfortunately no part of the internet is a public venue. There is no internet street corner, no "common carrier" internet phone company, no internet post office. Everything you do is subject to the whims of shareholder value. If tomorrow enough people decided left-handed people are the scum of the earth to affect Youtube's bottom line you'd start seeing left-handed videos demonetized. If enough people decided left-handed people don't deserve a voice to make a racket with their hosting providers and registars you'd see left-handed communities purged from the internet with no legal recourse whatsoever. In the real world that's only happened to Nazis and terrorists but I suspect we'll see it expanding as people realize the power an angry mob can wield.

It's a bit fascinating that media which attempts to censor this content seems to have worse problems with it than media which doesn't. There's nothing illegal about sending Nazi content through the mail but the mail isn't utterly swamped with Nazi newsletters but places like video games seem to fight an endless battle to keep half their users from turning racist.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#348

Post by drenvuk »

leadingthenet wrote: post #272
aidenn0 wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want all controversial views to be deplatformed, because I don't see any other way that people will care enough about centralization to actually change.

Accelerationism doesn’t work, and never has.

I beg to differ. Without this pandemic and current US president the odds of us seeing the BLM movement would be nil considering the consistently slow burn that we've had over the past decades.

Now that the swing has been so great in one direction more people will vote and more people will care. I don't like it but that's how it's working. People who are tired and apathetic lack the impetus to enact meaningful change.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#349

Post by acdha »

luckylion wrote: post #304
remmargorp64 wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy. Set up your own web site and put whatever you want to say on it. If the hosting company takes you down, host it yourself. If ICANN takes it down, host it on Tor. There are always ways to bypass corporate control of speech. You may have to completely forgo the benefits provided by the corporate web sites, but nothing is stopping you from making your own platform.

> If the hosting company takes you down, host it yourself. If ICANN takes it down, host it on Tor. That's a bit like "if the police beats you up in public, you're still free to speak your mind in your basement" though.

Except that it’s not a public space and the harm is far less than a beating. A hosting company can have terms of service just like any other business and the only real restrictions are legally-protected classes, and even that has context.

Think of it like going to a coffee shop: they can’t kick you out for being Catholic or male but they can ask you to leave if you are harassing other people, not following public health codes, etc.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#350

Post by csours »

tpsssing655 wrote: post #325
csours wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Two non-contradictory things may be true at once: " Agree > "secession to preserve slavery was utterly contemptible;" Agree > "fighting honourably in self-defense is praiseworthy." Lost me here. Fighting in self defense is understandable and necessary sometimes, but in defense of what principles? Context cannot be ignored.

Protecting your family for a foreign invading army, Sure some rich folks have slave, but what do i have to do with it? Shouldn't i protect my home from invaders?

That's completely understandable. I'm talking about how to view the statues and flags and things that people are still defending.
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