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Oppose the Earn IT Act

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Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#411
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My nothing to hide argument is a little different; Nothing to hide is an incomplete sentence. Nothing to hide from who? Surly you want to hide your children from abusers and predators? Don't you want to hide your banking details from con artists and fraudsters? Your identity from identity thieves.. Your location from burglars, your car keys from car thieves or your blood type from some rich mobsters with kidney probl…

The best response is simpler than that, that even encryption laymen can understand: "If I have nothing to hide, then you have no reason to look."

That argument doesn't really work. You supposedly know whether you have "nothing to hide" (and don't dare to admit it if you do have something to hide), they need to look to check this.

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this argument. My normal response to "I have nothing to hide" is: "Cool, can I take a look at your browser search/reddit history?".

That argument doesn't work because some people are so conformist that every detail about their personal lives would be considered 100% unobjectionable to anyone they know or work for. (This is impossible when you know or work for diverse groups, but inside of a monoculture it's possible.)

Then just change the question to "Cool, can I take a look at your bank account details?"

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#413
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My nothing to hide argument is a little different; Nothing to hide is an incomplete sentence. Nothing to hide from who? Surly you want to hide your children from abusers and predators? Don't you want to hide your banking details from con artists and fraudsters? Your identity from identity thieves.. Your location from burglars, your car keys from car thieves or your blood type from some rich mobsters with kidney probl…

Wouldn't the counterargument be "but only the government would have access, and we can trust the government"?

Only if you were willing to accept the "we can trust the government" part.

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument doesn't work because some people are so conformist that every detail about their personal lives would be considered 100% unobjectionable to anyone they know or work for. (This is impossible when you know or work for diverse groups, but inside of a monoculture it's possible.)

Somebody prove it by posting their email password. If we require encryption backdoors, the odds of it all ending up on Pastebin at some point is about the same.

With the poor security practices of the non-technical majority, it doesn't take an encryption backdoor for their password to end up on PasteBin. It already is on PasteBin.

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the speeding analogy. "I have nothing to hide" "Have you ever sped on the highway?" "Well, yes" "Imagine if the government reveals it's been tracking everyone's speed, and has decided to write everyone tickets for speeding." "That's insane, the government can't do that!" "Exactly"

This is not a good analogy because if you speed on the highway you are putting other peoples lives at risk, and doing it in public. I think we probably should have a satellite tracking every car and issuing a ticket as soon as a car speeds.

> if you speed on the highway you are putting other peoples lives at risk

If you drive at all you are theoretically putting other people's lives at risk. Everyone always has to exercise prudence when they drive in order to mitigate that risk. If their judgment is bad and they cause an accident, they are held legally liable for the harm they cause, and that gives people a strong incentive to not cause an accident. That, in a sane society, would be considered sufficient as a matter of public policy, and the government could just stop worrying about it and move on to more important things.

But ticketing someone because of an arbitrary number posted on a sign, which might have little or no relationship to the speed a reasonable and prudent person under the actual conditions on the actual highway would choose to drive, is not protecting people's lives. It's the government tapping an alternate source of revenue because it doesn't want to just admit it needs more money and raise taxes. Not to mention decreasing everyone's respect for the law, since everyone knows that under current conditions speed limits are unenforceable (and what enforcement does exist is arbitrary), and doing what it would take to actually enforce speed limits completely would be a draconian violation of our rights that no citizen of a free society should accept.

> I think we probably should have a satellite tracking every car and issuing a ticket as soon as a car speeds.

I think the government should stop trying to micromanage every aspect of people's lives and focus on protecting our rights.

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#416
post #208

If you want to convince your friends they should support encryption, here's how I like to get past the "nothing to hide" argument. Imagine we're sitting at a bar, chatting. None of us have anything to hide. Then the government passes a law that all conversations must be streamed on Youtube Live, so an agent comes in, sets up a camera at our table, and starts streaming. We still don't "have anything to hide". We're ju…

I think this misses the point. When people say "nothing to hide" they mean nothing to hide _from Law Enforcement_. I think the only counter argument is to demonstrate how close many of our western democracies are to becoming fascist dictatorships. We need privacy because if ever laws are passed that we don't agree with, we need to be able to break them until we can have the law changed. For example, if it was against…

> When people say "nothing to hide" they mean nothing to hide _from Law Enforcement_.

I don't think so. I think people simply mean they have a reasonable expectation of privacy in all of their personal activities. There are lots of things I say and do that law enforcement would not be interested in at all, but that I still want to keep private, simply because I want to. I shouldn't have to give a reason; privacy should be the default. People who genuinely want to share every little detail of their personal lives already have Facebook.

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#417
post #208

If you want to convince your friends they should support encryption, here's how I like to get past the "nothing to hide" argument. Imagine we're sitting at a bar, chatting. None of us have anything to hide. Then the government passes a law that all conversations must be streamed on Youtube Live, so an agent comes in, sets up a camera at our table, and starts streaming. We still don't "have anything to hide". We're ju…

> Imagine we're sitting at a bar, chatting. None of us have anything to hide. Then the government passes a law that all conversations must be streamed on Youtube Live, so an agent comes in, sets up a camera at our table, and starts streaming. If we are doing imaginary situations, the proponents of this bill can also do something like this: Imagine there is a bar, where the police are unable to go inside. Every day, p…

> just like the police can get a search warrant for a bad person's home or a bar where a lot of bad people are congregating and planning and doing bad things, we think they should also be allowed to do that in the online world.

Bad analogy, because a search warrant for one bad person's home or bar does not require the government to have keys to everyone's home and bar, just in case they need to search it.

In other words, the problem is not the "get a search warrant" part. It's the "break strong encryption so no one's data is secure, just in case we need to search anyone's data" part.

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#418

I reached out to my representatives on this when the Act was first proposed. I'm confused about the changes that have happened since that time and the post does not say anything about what has changed. What does "Advancing" mean in this case? If I have already contacted all of my legislators about strong encryption and opposition to this bill, what is the latest change that requires re-engaging?

I haven't followed the specifics, either, but it looks like it was introduced back in March. When I reached out to my Senators and Reps back then I got a reply from my House Rep (who I believe was supportive of the bill). The bill is currently in the Senate and only this week is getting "marked up" in the Judiciary Committee--I imagine if your Senator is on that committee it's more important to reach out.

Sadly, I think issues need constant re-engaging since they pop up under different names and in different forms.

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#419
post #208

If you want to convince your friends they should support encryption, here's how I like to get past the "nothing to hide" argument. Imagine we're sitting at a bar, chatting. None of us have anything to hide. Then the government passes a law that all conversations must be streamed on Youtube Live, so an agent comes in, sets up a camera at our table, and starts streaming. We still don't "have anything to hide". We're ju…

My take: The “nothing to hide” argument is a fallacy for two reasons: (1) The connotation that things discussed in private are bad. True, criminals may discuss illegal activity in private, but that does not mean everyone’s private conversations are illegal. (2) The notion of what needs “hiding” is subject to opinion, and changes over time. You may not be breaking any laws today, but if the law changes and governments have access to your past data, you are now vulnerable and have nowhere to hide.

From my post about privacy not too long ago, https://www.davidexmachina.com/2020/02/privacy-matters.html

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this argument. My normal response to "I have nothing to hide" is: "Cool, can I take a look at your browser search/reddit history?".

Everyone knows what most people do in the bathroom at work, yet they still close the stall door.

I bet you don't know that I mostly read HN in the bathroom :D
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