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Oppose the Earn IT Act

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Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#321

In one sense, the anti-crypto forces are not yet being as crazy as they have been at certain times in the past. People often forget that the federal government wanted to put Phil Zimmerman in prison over PGP in the nineties. [1] In another sense, this is much crazier. There wasn't much at stake commercially in the nineties, but today, legislatively screwing up crypto could compromise trillions of dollars worth of com…

It's more or less the same thing. PGP was used as an example of why the Clipper chip was pointless and futile. PGP is an example of why the Earn IT act is pointless and futile.

The Earn IT act is just another instance of the sort of incomplete thinking that produced the Clipper chip.

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#322
post #269
post #208

If you want to convince your friends they should support encryption, here's how I like to get past the "nothing to hide" argument. Imagine we're sitting at a bar, chatting. None of us have anything to hide. Then the government passes a law that all conversations must be streamed on Youtube Live, so an agent comes in, sets up a camera at our table, and starts streaming. We still don't "have anything to hide". We're ju…

My nothing to hide argument is a little different; Nothing to hide is an incomplete sentence. Nothing to hide from who? Surly you want to hide your children from abusers and predators? Don't you want to hide your banking details from con artists and fraudsters? Your identity from identity thieves.. Your location from burglars, your car keys from car thieves or your blood type from some rich mobsters with kidney probl…

Wouldn't the counterargument be "but only the government would have access, and we can trust the government"?

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#323
post #208

If you want to convince your friends they should support encryption, here's how I like to get past the "nothing to hide" argument. Imagine we're sitting at a bar, chatting. None of us have anything to hide. Then the government passes a law that all conversations must be streamed on Youtube Live, so an agent comes in, sets up a camera at our table, and starts streaming. We still don't "have anything to hide". We're ju…

Unless this bill's critics are mistaken, if your friends are using "file encryption", i.e, encrypting the contents of the communications themselves before sending, then this bill has no effect on that.

IMO, your friends, unless they are nerds, are never going to place much value on encryption when they never actually use it themselves. When some third party tech company is doing the "end-to-end encryption" for them then your friends are really not in control of the situation, let alone having any reason to understand it. It could be a sham and they might not know it.

This bill stands to hurt tech companies but according to its critics (surprise: it's the tech companies) it does not interfere with any individual's use of encryption for communications.

No one wants third parties to have potential access their communications. However there is no law preventing a tech company that provides "encrypted messaging" from decrypting people's communications. There is not even a contract with users. If they do this, their liability is zero. There are only "promises", something like, "We promise we won't do it, unless we receive a valid subpoena" or "We have made it technically impossible to see your messages." (Nevermind metadata.)

Well, what if some other third party, like the people pushing this bill, made the same promises? Would that be "good enough"?

Of course not.

For the record, I am not taking a for/against position here. I am not a tech company nor someone trying to get access to encrypted messaging services provided by tech companies. However if something came along -- not suggesting this is it -- that created the necessary evolutionary pressure to make every person, not just "bad guys", have a basic understanding of how to encrypt a file and send it over an insecure network, without relying on a third party for the encryption, then I would think that would be a good thing.

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#324
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My nothing to hide argument is a little different; Nothing to hide is an incomplete sentence. Nothing to hide from who? Surly you want to hide your children from abusers and predators? Don't you want to hide your banking details from con artists and fraudsters? Your identity from identity thieves.. Your location from burglars, your car keys from car thieves or your blood type from some rich mobsters with kidney probl…

Wouldn't the counterargument be "but only the government would have access, and we can trust the government"?

No, because such a scheme is not really possible. It’s only a matter of time before the governments secret key gets leaked.

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#325
post #208

If you want to convince your friends they should support encryption, here's how I like to get past the "nothing to hide" argument. Imagine we're sitting at a bar, chatting. None of us have anything to hide. Then the government passes a law that all conversations must be streamed on Youtube Live, so an agent comes in, sets up a camera at our table, and starts streaming. We still don't "have anything to hide". We're ju…

I think the key here isn't broadcasting, it's storage. In the future (?) we might think we can detect Parkinson's or MS very early through voice/video/typing characteristics. Your conversations were recorded, the data leaked to or purchased by a fly by night company hired by your bank, and now suddenly despite your excellent credit history you can't get a 30 year mortgage, you try to find a new job but companies are…

Banks can’t base mortgage on possibility of dying: https://www.55places.com/blog/60-year-old-can-get-30-year-mo...

Even barring the legal requirement, banks already prices mortgages such that they can handle being stuck holding the title with no payment. Down payments or government guarantees prevent them from holding the bag unless the housing market takes a big downturn.

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#326

In one sense, the anti-crypto forces are not yet being as crazy as they have been at certain times in the past. People often forget that the federal government wanted to put Phil Zimmerman in prison over PGP in the nineties. [1] In another sense, this is much crazier. There wasn't much at stake commercially in the nineties, but today, legislatively screwing up crypto could compromise trillions of dollars worth of com…

It's more or less the same thing. PGP was used as an example of why the Clipper chip was pointless and futile. PGP is an example of why the Earn IT act is pointless and futile. The Earn IT act is just another instance of the sort of incomplete thinking that produced the Clipper chip.

The point I was getting at in my second paragraph is, the consequences of screwing up everyone's cryptography today include wrecking the modern economy. This wasn't true 30 years ago.

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this argument. My normal response to "I have nothing to hide" is: "Cool, can I take a look at your browser search/reddit history?".

That argument doesn't work because some people are so conformist that every detail about their personal lives would be considered 100% unobjectionable to anyone they know or work for. (This is impossible when you know or work for diverse groups, but inside of a monoculture it's possible.)

> some people are so conformist that every detail about their personal lives would be considered 100% unobjectionable

In this time and age, I find that highly doubtful.

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#328
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Send her an e-mail in 2 minutes telling her to stop supporting EARN-IT https://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/e-mail-me

Writing Feinstein is a total waste of time. She’ll send a smarmy response about how you’re clearly an idiot for thinking it has anything to do with encryption, and how she’s proud to be a co-sponsor. She’s been completely ignoring voter complaints for decades. Before open primaries, it was essentially impossible for her to lose an election, and she knew it. I’m extremely liberal, but if the “recall governor Newsom” c…

I hear you, but venting into an open email form is somewhat satisfying, and the more busywork her office has the less damage she can do?

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument doesn't work because some people are so conformist that every detail about their personal lives would be considered 100% unobjectionable to anyone they know or work for. (This is impossible when you know or work for diverse groups, but inside of a monoculture it's possible.)

I don't buy it. We all do things that although not wrong we still wouldn't like to share with anyone. i.e. No person wants to be seen picking their nose, although everybody does it.

If someone believes they wouldn't mind being seen picking their nose, it doesn't matter whether they are correct in that assessment. You won't convince them using such an argument because they won't agree with your premise even though you're right.

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#330
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm stealing your analogy but I'm also ready for people to smugly proclaim that they would have no issue with livestreaming their entire life since they have nothing to hide.

That’s the best part. Remind them that it’s not about you . It’s about whistleblowers and journalists who need to protect their sources, and lawyers who need to communicate with their clients. That tends to bring the ego down a peg ;) But honestly, it’s best not to be aggressive. Some people don’t care much, and you won’t convince them. FWIW, all my non-technical friends use Signal with me, and they know about verify…

> Remind them that it’s not about you.

Unfortunately, as the current coronavirus case data shows, a large number of people here think everything is about them and them alone, so we'll need to make an argument that speaks to them personally. I'm not sure there is one that's universal—as suggested above, asking for their salary might be as close as we might get. That would then leave government employees.

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