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Oppose the Earn IT Act

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Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#181
post #3

I cannot believe that the one thing we have bipartisan consensus on is destroying strong encryption. I guess I’m biased since this is essentially my whole livelihood, but this is crazy, right?

Well, nsa mass surveillance and legalized torture were never repelled by any side. In fact, the patriot act has been prolongued 5 times, no matter the administration, and is still in effect. As a european, I don't see any party that actually have american people's interest in mind. Fighting for either seems so futile from here. Of course, we have similar problems as well so I'm not going to pretend I have a solution.

As an American, I don’t see any country in the world that doesn’t have exactly the same problems.

The EU has been considering similar anti-encryption legislation for years. Primarily supported by France, UK and Germany. The main opponents to it in the EU have been NGOs, which mirrors the American experience on this issue.

The cynic in me speculates the reason the EU parliament hasn’t pushed the issue further is simply because it’s waiting for it’s influential members states (or the US) to pass the legislation required to gut these services, so that they won’t have the potentially unpopular task of doing so themselves.

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#183
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obligatory plug for electoral reform. Lesser evils aren't inevitable; they're a product of a bad voting system. https://www.fairvote.org/rcv https://www.fairvote.org/alternatives Maine has converted to RCV already and it's stood up in court; 49 to go.

> Lesser evils aren't inevitable; they're a product of a bad voting system. It's made much worse by the bad voting system, but it's perfectly possible that I simply disagree with enough of my fellow citizens that any compromise we can reach will be some "lesser evil".

I think that's probably the case. Nonetheless, I would claim "lesser evilism" would be greatly reduced due to RCV (and Approval) being better at capturing preferences: you get to vote for your favorite option, and against your least favorite option.

I think there's a strong argument that RCV/Approval would shift the incentives and game-theoretic landscape away from polarization and turnout, and towards big-tent coalition building, to appeal to the greatest quantity of left, right, center, and independent. That does mean compromise, and likely policy concessions; but i think that would be a huge improvement over (a) taking turns at obstructionism, and (b) a de-facto one-party system regarding corporate interests, the military-industrial complex, etc.

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#184
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe you. I've never understood how she garners so much support in progressive Cali of all places.

California is not as progressive as you might hope. The cities are full of progressives, but outside the cities is very conservative. You have to be fairly moderate to win statewide office. Newsom was a reaction to Trump, but sort of an aberration. More than half of our governors have been Republicans, including Regan, who went on be President and a paragon of the GOP. Since the 80s 14 out of 30 years has been Republ…

Nancy Pelosi represents San Francisco. I don't think you can call even the cities progressive.

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to push back against this, and specifically fair vote. - What they are referring to as RCV is called Instant Runoff Voting (IRV). IRV is a RCV, but RCV isn't IRV. Think "Rock and Roll is The Beatles" vs "The Beatles are a Rock and Roll group." - IRV isn't that great when it comes to Voter Satisfaction Efficiency (VSE)[0]. There's even other RCV methods like Ranked Pair[1] that are exactly the same for the vote…

Most of what you write is good, but I want to point out that non-ordinal methods suffer from a problem that is at a level more fundamental than most analyses address, to wit, that there is no objective question about preferences that they ask, and thus no clear “correct” honest ballot marking given a set of voter preferences. There are conditions which resolve this (e.g., when ballot markings in a method like score v…

Thank you. I'd like to respond in kind

> that there is no objective question about preferences that they ask

I don't see this as an issue. I also don't see it as a problem to specifically non-ordinal, but to every system. I like to try to explain a STAR05 ballot simply to people with a forum they are very familiar with. A ballot might look like below

How do you feel about ___x___ candidate?

Very Unfavorably, unfavorably, neutral, favorably, very favorably

Those are your 5 options. Yes, this isn't exact, but we can't have an infinite score. But as we understand distributions, we know that the fluctuations won't matter much. If a group of people have an "honest" opinion that a candidate is rated "favorably" (or a 4) we'll see a distribution around this (a fairly tight distribution). So you'll get some 3's and 5's, but most people will give 4's and the average will be 4. So it isn't an issue. Similarly, if you are ranking people and view two candidates equally 50% of people will put candidate A in front of B and vise versa (well real world there'd be a bias for things like: who is listed first, "nicer" sounding name, familiarity, etc. But still, that's not too big of an issue because at the end we get pretty close to the optimal efficiency that the system can provide). You have to remember that there is no perfect system, Arrow and Gibbard showed that. But the question is if we statistically come close to the optimal (that the system can provide).

I want to point out that simple approval voting is VERY effective, even though it is low precision. You're literally choosing "like" and "dislike." Analysts aren't that concerned with the lack of objectivity in the difference between a 4 and 5 or a 3 and 4 because it is much more refined. If this is a major concern, then extend the expressiveness by increasing the range, e.g. 0-10.

I would also encourage you to listen to that interview that I linked. Arrow briefly discusses this topic. He makes some criticisms of score voting but also says it is the option he would push (question is which he'd advocate for). Remember, there is no such thing as a perfect voting system. There's always a trade-off. We're just trying to minimize the trade-offs.

And personally, if someone made RP popular I would gladly advocate for it. But because we're trying to trade one shitty system (plurality) for something only slightly less shitty (IRV) I am going to be vocal about the issues and lying that is happening. I don't really have an issue with RCVs, but specifically IRV. This is why I wanted to make a clear distinction between the two. Because when the discussions come up we end up using different languages, using the same words to describe different things. This may have been a smart move by Fair Vote, but we're on Hacker News and there's an expectation of more nuance than we'd have in other places like Reddit or in person.

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#186
post #14

Obviously this sucks as a proposal but... how do we stop the child porn?

Serious answer:

- Undercover police work and informants, which is how most large busts already happen now. The worst offenders are not swapping child porn on Facebook or Dropbox

- Encourage marriage and remove benefits penalties for two-parent households, as children are substantially more likely to be abused when their biological father is not in the household

- Institute the death penalty for child sexual abuse and make sure it is performed swiftly and publicly

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#187
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to push back against this, and specifically fair vote. - What they are referring to as RCV is called Instant Runoff Voting (IRV). IRV is a RCV, but RCV isn't IRV. Think "Rock and Roll is The Beatles" vs "The Beatles are a Rock and Roll group." - IRV isn't that great when it comes to Voter Satisfaction Efficiency (VSE)[0]. There's even other RCV methods like Ranked Pair[1] that are exactly the same for the vote…

This was extremely informative, thank you for taking the time to write it up!

Social Choice has been a hobby of mine ever since I saw the CGP Grey videos back when it first came out (2011!!!). The issues I have are that when you dig deeper you realize how much was lost.

So I am happy to try my best to answer questions and provide more resources. If you like game theory, this is a great subject to learn and has clear and immediate applications (even outside of elections).

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech companies don't just host harmful content: They make money off of it. The fact that Google and Facebook take a cut off malware, scams, and fraud perpetrated over their advertising platforms, while bearing no responsibility or liability for them gives them an incredible disincentive to shut down bad actors. A huge portion of Google Ad income is malicious content, and as long as they can't be sued or indited for i…

> A huge portion of Google Ad income is malicious content, and as long as they can't be sued or indited for it, they're going to continue to automatically approve and profit off criminal activity. Citation needed. Also, wouldn't this also apply to broadcasting companies? Say, potentially harmful commercials airing on prime time.

I was going to challenge you to find me a company selling malware on CBS or NBC, but then I remembered Google runs TV ads, so fair point. /s

And importantly, broadcast television doesn't get Section 230 protections, and does just fine. A great example of why tech companies don't need immunity. Broadcast TV ads are sold on a smaller scale, such that humans are involved in the process and bad actors are caught early.

> Citation needed.

The general problem here is that Google is the only one with meaningful data, and obviously they're very motivated not to reveal how big a market illegal activity is on their platform. Note that even in legitimate verticals, scams push the bidding higher for advertising on their platforms. So not only does Google make money directly off scammers, they also make more money off legitimate advertisers because the bidding was higher. Google both claims that there's no data proving their business is illegitimate, while keeping all the data secret. So we have to rely on the evidence we can see.

A great example is what The Verge uncovered in 2017 with rehab scams: https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/7/16257412/rehabs-near-me-go... where they found some insane CPCs: "If you’re in Arizona, and you click on the top ad, you’ll cost that advertiser around $221", and Google was actively soliciting business in this extremely valuable market: "The search giant actively courts treatment centers, both online and off. In May, a Google “digital ambassador” was a featured speaker at the Treatment Center Executive & Marketing Retreat". They had multiple people directly focused on cultivating business in this particular market. Scammers were both harming consumers directly, and also pushing the CPCs up to insane levels for real drug rehab centers, hurting consumers indirectly as well.

You can also see an interesting way Google helps bad actors stay hidden here: "The 800 number was ephemeral. ...Google offers advertisers unique “tracking” phone numbers that forward to a company’s phones, so they can understand which ads are bringing in the most clients. The phone numbers only stay up as long as the ad does." So you can't even meaningfully trace out a phone number on a scam ad back to the company that pays for it. Everything is laundered through Google accounts.

After this piece, of course, Google finally acted and more or less shut down their entire drug rehab vertical for a while, and retooled it. I'm sure it's drastically less profitable now. But the problem is, they got to keep the millions and millions of dollars profit they got from engaging in a business practice that was directly harmful to people.

My long time example, which Google still refuses to address, is searches for "mapquest". MapQuest is a top search term for seniors, who don't realize that other directions sites exist. To it's credit, MapQuest is still pretty decent. Problem is, Google sells ads for "Maps Quest" that look like the real site, but redirect you to sites that require you install browser-hijacking add-ons in order to proceed (add-ons hosted in the Chrome Web Store, I might add). No matter how many times I've attempted to report them, these sites are allowed to continue doing this. A Googler actually had them removed once, and Google re-enabled the same sites' ads within a couple of hours.

Another fun part of this, is that if MapQuest wants to be presented above those malicious ads, MapQuest has to outbid them... for it's own trademarked brand name! Ad squatting is another way Google rakes in massive revenues via essentially blackmail: Pay us or we'll let scammers place higher than you for your own name.

I wouldn't hazard a statistic, because it'd be a guess, but I imagine if Google were forced to disclose advertisers and spends, you'd find a substantial portion of Google's profits were ill-gotten gains.

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#189
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech companies have the right to suppress speech on their platforms, just like everyone. Section 230 just makes the courts more efficient. There is no loophole. Sorry to keep posting this link but the Section 230 misconception is very dangerous. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20200531/23325444617/hello...

TechDirt/Copia Institute is funded directly by Google, and should be interpreted as paid lobbying.

Ok, here it is from Ken White:

https://www.popehat.com/2019/08/29/make-no-law-deplatformed/

Re: Oppose the Earn IT Act

#190
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obligatory plug for electoral reform. Lesser evils aren't inevitable; they're a product of a bad voting system. https://www.fairvote.org/rcv https://www.fairvote.org/alternatives Maine has converted to RCV already and it's stood up in court; 49 to go.

I want to push back against this, and specifically fair vote. - What they are referring to as RCV is called Instant Runoff Voting (IRV). IRV is a RCV, but RCV isn't IRV. Think "Rock and Roll is The Beatles" vs "The Beatles are a Rock and Roll group." - IRV isn't that great when it comes to Voter Satisfaction Efficiency (VSE)[0]. There's even other RCV methods like Ranked Pair[1] that are exactly the same for the vote…

Thanks for your post, I'll dig into your links. I hadn't heard of STAR in particular.

Two counterpoints:

- I'm aware of Arrow, but I file it under "perfect being the enemy of the good". :) Whatever the flaws of IRV, it still represents an order of magnitude improvement over FPTP at capturing political preferences. (We suffer so much status quo bias, it takes a lot of activation energy just to communicate to the average voter that better options exist at all!) But I happily cede the point: IRV is not the best choice of all the available options.

- My favorite is actually Approval, and I don't always bring it up because it has lower mindshare and is less self-descriptive / "sticky-branding" compared to Ranked Choice. My reasons for the preference:

(a) There's no nitpicking over counting methods: whoever gets the most votes wins.

(b) Easy to explain to voters (including the counting system), and degrades gracefully for those who still want to vote for only one candidate. (I've heard objections that some voters hit a cheater-detection trigger, that "some people get more votes than others"; this can be solved by reframing as "Y/N" per candidate, so X candidates = X Y/N votes per voter).

(c) I believe it largely sidesteps Arrow by redefining the success condition: rather than attempt to perfectly measure ideal preferences, it definitionally represents "Consent of the Governed": not who's your favorite, but who are you willing to live with? This would make it more difficult for bolder and more unconventional candidates, but at the benefit of rewarding coalitions and consensus-building. Polarization and sowing distrust would cease to be a viable strategy.

(As an aside, in a perfect world, a blank ballot would be counted as a meta-vote for "None of the Above"; and if it wins, a whole new election of all-new candidates must be held.)

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