Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

old.reddit.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 228 posts

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#121

Post by jkaplowitz »

Marsymars wrote: post #89
jkaplowitz wrote: post #67

Quebec's Consumer Protection Act makes it outright illegal to auto-bill after free trials for non-business individual customers based here, regardless of what legalese those consumers agree to. How does Apple's policy allow for that? They can't claim they can ignore Quebec law, as they have both an Apple Store and a corporate office in Montreal and already acknowledge another provision of the same Quebec law on their…

I don't know about the App Store in particular, but the approach of most companies in Quebec is to simply not have free trials. (e.g. and to have the fist 13 months of service cost the same as the first 12 months of service in other locales.)

What companies based in Quebec do the "add an extra month to the first subscription cycle" approach? I haven't experienced that from any local company. I've only seen foreign companies use that as an attempt to hand-wave past Quebec public policy here without having to program anything different, by simply rephrasing the fine print.

For example, even though Amazon's systems have plenty of information that my ISP and my main shipping and billing addresses are in Quebec, Amazon markets 30-day Prime free trials to me and then notes in the fine print that Quebec residents get a 13-month first yearly cycle or 2-month first monthly cycle instead. But they also don't charge Quebec consumers for the 13-month or 2-month subscription until the end of the first month, and they don't charge us at all if we cancel during the first month. Smells just like a rebranded free trial with auto-billing.

I'm not convinced Quebec courts would uphold that as legitimately different from a free trial with auto-billing if challenged. The law isn't in place just to force a change in language, it's to force a change in billing or pricing behaviour. This isn't that. Do you know if the compliance of this approach has already been ruled on?

Additionally, the same law covers cancellation penalties and Amazon is noncompliant. Even after the free trial, Amazon is not supposed to charge a cancellation penalty more than the lesser of C$50 or 10% of the pro-rata remainder contract amount.

So, with the annual plan here still costing C$79/year, cancelling right after the first charge should cost Quebec residents at most C$7.90, possibly less since part of the first charge is officially allocated by the fine print to the initial month for Quebec residents. In practice Amazon keeps 100% of the cost in this scenario.

Article from 2015 discussing this:

https://ricochet.media/en/519/amazons-quebec-users-could-fac...

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#122

Post by thoraway1010 »

black_puppydog wrote: post #113
pbreit wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. Apple is providing a consistent customer experience for enrolling, free trialing, auto-billing and canceling.

* consistently user hostile

Except it is very user friendly.

Try to cancel your newspaper subscription - you have to call in and jump through hoops.

Try to cancel your cable or internet, you didn't realize the rate you got was a "promo" rate that required a two year contract?

I guarantee that if apple used the approaches others use, subscription revenue would be a LOT higher.

They send you an email saying, here's what will be renewing soon, click here to cancel. I end up canceling about 80% of what would auto renew.

And I hate the developers who are not upfront with the subscription price. If there is a free trial, what does it cost after. Even NY Times did this ($1/month in big print - fine print said something like $54/month after 1 month or maybe it was just in a link burried etc).

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#123

Post by csunbird »

black_puppydog wrote: post #113
pbreit wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. Apple is providing a consistent customer experience for enrolling, free trialing, auto-billing and canceling.

* consistently user hostile

What? I am in love with Apple's way of handling subscriptions. I know that whenever I want, I can cancel it, no strings attached.

If the app does not deliver what it claims with the subscription, I can trust Apple to dispute it. For example, there are a couple of apps that offer subscription and amazing deals out of in-app purchases, but I simply refuse to subscribe that kind of applications, because there are a lot of shady companies want to take your money.

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#124

Post by newbie578 »

Another day, another Apple anti-developer policy.

It is interesting to see how quick the Apple fanboys are to react, and explain how every move Apple makes is "user-friendly" and incorruptible.

I am just patiently sitting in the corner and hoping Microsoft enters the market so that developers have more alternatives.

Would love to see developers abandon iOS, and then for people to see how "user-friendly" Apple is with only Safari and Facebook on iPhone :)

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#125

Post by machello13 »

cbhl wrote: post #108

One of the things I really like about the iOS subscription billing ecosystem is that there is one centralized place to see all my subscriptions. I hate that it's hidden behind four clicks in "Settings", but, once you find it, it's very nice to be able to have one place to go "oh yeah I should unsubscribe from that crossword app I haven't opened in three months". By comparison, for other sites, I have to go find my us…

For me, it's top-level in the "Apple ID" section in Settings — AKA just one level below the main Settings interface. Is that not the case for you?

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#126

Post by nabakin »

kemayo wrote: post #9

Apple's approach isn't as bad as this title makes it sound. Mostly because they're aggressive communicators about subscription billing -- they send emails well in advance of any subscription renewal, telling you when you'll be billed, how much for, and giving you a link to cancel the subscription. Makes me feel this isn't them hoping you'll just forget and be billed. In fact, I'd suspect this is intended as a user-fr…

My first thought was they did it from a security/quality perspective. Less fake accounts in their ecosystem trying to hawk free trials when you have to verify by providing payment info.

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#127

Post by machello13 »

newbie578 wrote: post #124

Another day, another Apple anti-developer policy. It is interesting to see how quick the Apple fanboys are to react, and explain how every move Apple makes is "user-friendly" and incorruptible. I am just patiently sitting in the corner and hoping Microsoft enters the market so that developers have more alternatives. Would love to see developers abandon iOS, and then for people to see how "user-friendly" Apple is with…

The title is extremely misleading here. Apple isn't forcing the developer to "implement auto-billing", they're forcing them to use the system API for trials and in-app purchases (a feature of which is auto-billing).

I won't argue auto-billing is user-friendly, but users being able to manage their subscriptions in a single place, not to mention having the subscriptions explained with a consistent language, and presented with consistent UI across every app, is definitely user-friendly.

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#128

Post by thoraway1010 »

programAgaib wrote: post #4
dave84 wrote: post #2

This has been a rule from day one as far as I can remember. Nothing new here.

So Apple has always been anti consumer and anti developer. Right, nothing new here.

Uh - you realize they charge a PREMIUM and have some of the highest margins because they are FAR FAR more trusted than most android and other phone mfgs? You realize samsung is pumping ads directly to your handset - and these other folks never update their old devices.

So interesting to read the HN folks trashing apple relative to their competitors even though they are almost certainly a leader on almost every trust based metric that matters to the average user.

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#129

Post by BiteCode_dev »

thoraway1010 wrote: post #122
black_puppydog wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* consistently user hostile

Except it is very user friendly. Try to cancel your newspaper subscription - you have to call in and jump through hoops. Try to cancel your cable or internet, you didn't realize the rate you got was a "promo" rate that required a two year contract? I guarantee that if apple used the approaches others use, subscription revenue would be a LOT higher. They send you an email saying, here's what will be renewing soon, cli…

Op state they have a broken leg, you say they should be happy not to have cancer.

Re: Apple forcing app developers to implement auto-billing after free trial

#130

Post by thoraway1010 »

berkes wrote: post #46
hellofunk wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s because without the voice of reason to help balance things out, there would be a strong misleading conception that everything about being a developer on Apple’s platforms is 100 percent negative, but this is certainly far from the truth. There are pros and cons, I don’t think it’s necessarily better or worse than developing on other platforms. The advantages outweigh the negatives much of the time.

That explains one or two comments countering an attack on Apple with arguments. I see those too. But it does not explain all the anecdotal (I've never had o cancel. For me X is not an issue. I don't know anyone ever coplaining about Y) arguments. Or personal attacks. And so on. It really reeks like a tribal war. The scorched smell of flamewars.

What a pitiful comment. The click-bait headlines are generally the "apple forcing ...." type headlines.

Can the apple haters not get a grip or do any kind of reasonable comparison to the other phone folks (who never update the software of old devices, are now shoving ads directly to your phone, install spyware on your device from the factory etc?

It's like a total myopia. Apple's STRENGTH is a highly consistent experience for developers (much easier to targert iOS versions than android versions) and users (you get a mailing about renewing subscriptions for all of yours).

Post reply on HN