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Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#121

Post by ryan_j_naughton »

swarnie_ wrote: post #44
daemin wrote: post #40

I would have said that returning Hong Kong back to China was one of the biggest mistakes the UK has made, but here we are in 2020. It would have been better if they made it into an independent city state like Singapore.

If you don't return something at the end of a contract is that theft? or piracy? Its not like the UK had a choice. We're you expecting them to go all Hawaii on the situation and just annex it?

The British could have done what they did with Belize. Belize wanted independence but Guatemala claimed that it was actually a province/state of Guatemala. The British supported independence and left a battalion of troops in Belize, the British Forces Belize, in order to act as a deterrent to a Guatemalan invasion.[1][2]

While China is obviously much more powerful than Guatemala, they still wouldn't have been able to invade given that it would have caused a nuclear war. Also, at that point China was much weaker economically so an economic war would have severely hurt their economic growth, undermining the key source of their power over the past 20 years.

The real issue is that HK wasn't viable without support from the mainland -- support they would have lost had this tactic been tried.

"Although not quite a piece of "barren rock" as derided by Lord Palmerston, Britain’s foreign secretary during the First Opium War, from 1839 to 1842, the fact remains that Hong Kong isn’t endowed with the necessary natural resources to support its population of 7 million. The Hong Kong special administrative region of China gets over 70 percent of its water from Dongjiang, a river in neighboring Guangdong province. Meanwhile, over 90 percent of fresh meat and vegetables consumed in Hong Kong is sourced from the mainland. And mainland energy sources generate more than half of the electricity consumed locally."[3]

They would have had to bear a massive cost, investing in desalination plants, nuclear power plants, and imported their food from elsewhere.

That cost -- while extreme -- might be looked at in hindsight as cheaper than the current outcome with the likely significant brain drain from HK.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belizean%E2%80%93Guatemalan_te...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_Training_and_Supp...

[3] https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/08/21/hong-kongs-inconvenient...

Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#122

Post by arethuza »

growlist wrote: post #114
runawaybottle wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it surprising? UK has a problem with certain races coming over. What’s the difference between Syrian refugees and Hong Kongers? They would both be seeking refugee status essentially.

Educated, entrepreneurial, hard working, law abiding, socially conservative, respectful of their host. Who wouldn't welcome migrants like this?

I suspect that description applies to a lot of migrants to the UK from the EU - certainly most of the people I know who migrated here from Germany, Greece, Spain, Italy....

Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#123

Post by unicornfinder »

derision wrote: post #41
entropea wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't there also similar laws like that in USA? People are being recommended life sentences for throwing a molotov at an empty police vehicle during these George Floyd protests and are being labeled as terrorists by Trump. https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17/us/brooklyn-molotov-lawyers-p...

Good. I don't care if it's a police car or someone's personal car or an empty cardboard box. If you're throwing around molotov cocktails you should go to jail.

To be fair though, even if you think people should go to jail for that (and I don't think that's an unreasonable view), surely you'd agree that a life sentence is excessive?

Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#124

Post by pm90 »

eggsnbacon1 wrote: post #51
crobertsbmw wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After reading Open Borders by Bryan Cahlan, I’m convinced that if there is a burden on the host country it’s temporary. Long term, I think the host country has much more to gain than to lose.

This has and will be debated forever. Given the choice though, I think its much clearer that letting in wealthy educated people is a net benefit.

Your belief does not make it a reality. Studies have shown that all kinds of immigration greatly benefits host countries, and especially aging Western ones with declining populations.

Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#125

Post by vertex-four »

throw51319 wrote: post #80
entropea wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the authoritarian right which includes US liberals. The left doesn't even exist worldwide except in extremely small insignificant numbers pumped up by media to create new red scare conditions among the population. The left has been crushed for the last 40+ years by the authoritarian right and has absolutely no backbone. The authoritarian right runs the gig, the authoritarian right creates the violence. Edit: DSA,…

Laughable. The ways things are going currently, if you don't agree with the left on things you can lose your job. You can't voice an opinion that is different or you get labeled a racist. You can see this every day in plain sight.

There's a reason some portion of the left is pretty intolerant of the current situation - it literally results in violence to people who don't even share their opinions in the first place.

Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#126

Post by vmception »

monkeypizza wrote: post #11
nieksand wrote: post #3

This article lists some key provisions from the Chinese Communist Party's security law: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52765838

Some real kickers in here: * Beijing will establish a new security office in Hong Kong, with its own law enforcement personnel - neither of which would come under the local authority's jurisdiction * This office can send some cases to be tried in mainland China - but Beijing has said it will only have that power over a "tiny number" of cases * Beijing will have power over how the law should be interpreted, not any Ho…

People give way too much weight to a handover promise with a completely different country, and not the wording of the Hong Kong constitution and the Chinese Constitution.

Both allow for everything that has happened, which suggests restraint by both Hong Kong and Chinese authories.

Hong Kong Basic Law (its constitution) allows for National Security to be controlled by Beijing.

I can see the symbolism of 50 year autonomy being undermined, but can someone explain why this topic never has a legal discussion attached, whereas other topics do?

Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#127

Post by euix »

daemin wrote: post #40

I would have said that returning Hong Kong back to China was one of the biggest mistakes the UK has made, but here we are in 2020. It would have been better if they made it into an independent city state like Singapore.

Not like they had much of a choice. I think Deng Xiaoping said to Thatcher "we'll roll the PLA in come 1997 with or without an agreement". Basically, we can have an agreement to save face all around or will just go in. Especially since the water and food from Hong Kong are basically supplied from the mainland.

We are well pass the time when a technologically advance oceanic power can establish and hold enclaves on the heartland. That was only possible in the past because of the huge development lead the European power's developed through industrialization and colonialism.

Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#128

Post by derision »

entropea wrote: post #52
derision wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of the rise of the authoritarian left spreading fear across the country with violence and looting?

No, the authoritarian right which includes US liberals. The left doesn't even exist worldwide except in extremely small insignificant numbers pumped up by media to create new red scare conditions among the population. The left has been crushed for the last 40+ years by the authoritarian right and has absolutely no backbone. The authoritarian right runs the gig, the authoritarian right creates the violence. Edit: DSA,…

[flagged]

Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#129

Post by mjw1007 »

daemin wrote: post #40

I would have said that returning Hong Kong back to China was one of the biggest mistakes the UK has made, but here we are in 2020. It would have been better if they made it into an independent city state like Singapore.

I'm not sure it's best to think of that situation as an occasion when the UK made a choice.

If the US had said "we wish Hong Kong to declare independence and will provide military backing as required", I expect the UK would have gone along with it (I offer no opinion on whether that would have worked). But in the absence of that that I don't think there was much of a decision to make.

Quite possibly the UK were out-diplomatted and a somewhat better deal would have been available in principle. But ultimately (as we have seen in recent years) there's nothing that stops a superpower saying "we're now going to walk away from this treaty we previously signed".

Re: Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents

#130

Post by growlist »

crobertsbmw wrote: post #43
eggsnbacon1 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hong Kong was a British colony for generations and is still strongly influenced by western culture. Probably why China has such an obsession with crushing it. Adopting HK citizens is a far easier sell than Syrians. They already speak English, are highly educated, wealthy, westernized, and have special status in UK law. Letting a ton of refugees in is a large burden on the host country. They don't share British cultur…

After reading Open Borders by Bryan Cahlan, I’m convinced that if there is a burden on the host country it’s temporary. Long term, I think the host country has much more to gain than to lose.

So then by this logic, we should be attempting to have every person on earth living in the UK, since all migration is positive, right? Or is there an upper limit to the desirable population of the UK before life becomes intolerable?
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