California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste • Hacker News Board

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#421

Post by vishnugupta » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 1:35 PM UTC

olcor wrote: post #144

8ytecoder wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vegetarian is a huge identity marker. Quote from a professor from my college to my then girlfriend about me - “I wish he was at least a vegetarian”. I happen to be a vegan now and I have a lighter complexion and I clearly get assumed to be “upper caste” and somehow “smart” goes along with it. Answering to GP above - I don’t mind talking about it but some bar conversations have opened with it. That’s not pleasant. It’…

> It requires nuance to understand how deeply and yet subtly embedded caste is in India And this is the nuance I'm talking about. I understand vegetarianism definitely has positive connotations in India, but it's rarely about caste, which is what we're looking at here. There's a lot of different opinions in a country of a billion people, but just labeling it as caste isn't going to do any of it favors. > It’s not a l…

> vegetarianism definitely has positive connotations in India, but it's rarely about caste,

I’m not sure which part of India does this apply to. As an Indian living in India (born brought up, working now etc), almost every single instance vegetarianism was brought up in a discussion, it was immediately followed up with caste.

Sure, India is vast, but I just don’t know a place where diet is decoupled from caste.

Talking about myself, though I’m a Maratha Kshatriya my parents somehow didn’t prefer non vegetarian. So I ended up growing up a vegetarian dude. Only to be mocked by my relatives later in life “what kind of a Maratha are you who doesn’t eat meat”

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#422

Post by randomguy2379 » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 1:36 PM UTC

Lio wrote: post #412

randomguy2379 wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who was born a lower caste hindu, I don't really mind the british caste system at all. Because the british caste system is fluid. If you are born to servant parents and study hard to become a doctor, you end up at the top of the caste system. Not in Hinduism. Even if you become a doctor, but were born a dalit(lowest caste), you will remain a dalit and so will your future generations. There is no escape fro…

News Flash: doctor isn't the top of our class system. Even if you become a doctor you still won't be a part of the aristocracy. The best you can do is upper middle class. That might mean you're the head of a FTSE100 company, which is still pretty good but you won't be upper class until the Queen dishes out a knighthood for all great works of charity you'll do. ...and even then though you'll probably still wear the wr…

Sorry I am not entirely familiar with the intricacies of the British class system. My point was more about the British class system having upward mobility. Hindu caste system has none. A dalit doctor is still the lowest caste and all of his future generations will also be lowest caste. While poor farmer brahmins will call themselves highest caste.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#423

Post by hbarka » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 1:44 PM UTC

It’s interesting to see how systemic discrimination takes root. I wonder if there’s an encyclopedia identifying the forms of systemic bias.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#424

Post by vishnugupta » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 1:45 PM UTC

thinkingemote wrote: post #417

I once had a western educated (self confessed Brahmin) guy say that India and Pakistan were culturally identical. Now there's some comments here about converting to Christianity as an attractive alternative, but what about Islam? Could the success of Islam in certain places in the Indian subcontinent have been driven by the caste system? Does conversion to Islam involve a change of name? Does the caste system operate…

Caste system is pervasive in India. It invades almost every religion in India over time. As an example, here’s what I wrote in another response.

This Jati is so pervasive in India that even the non-Hindu religions such as Sikhism and “Lingayat” which were explicitly formed to be away from the Hindu caste system couldn’t escape it. So we now have a few dozen Jati within Sikhism and Lingayats with an overly of Verna.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#425

Post by kaybe » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 1:46 PM UTC

randomguy2379 wrote: post #88

blueblisters wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry for your experience. Do you mind sharing what part of India you're from? It is really surprising to me that relatively better off Dalits would still find the need to convert to a different religion to avoid discrimination. Even more surprising that this is happening at a wider scale. I respect your personal choice, of course, but curious why people choose to convert to a different religion instead of just…

I'm from the northern part of India. Well it actually hits you harder once you are better off. You could drive a BMW, live in a big house and have all the luxuries of being an upper class person, but hindus would still see you as an inferior lower caste. In terms of social hierarchy, a poor brahmin who flips burgers at a burger store is higher caste than a dalit doctor. Converting is the only way to get rid of your c…

So what would happen if, say, an Australian or Haitian converted to Hinduism? Or is that not possible?

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#426

Post by WhompingWindows » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 1:47 PM UTC

randomguy2379 wrote: post #308

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #273

I’ve got a “hot button” about castes. I hate ‘em. Comes from growing up overseas (I live in the US), and having servants. These were the people that raised us, and were, for all intents and purpose, “family.” Except they weren’t, and when I found out how they lived, it broke my heart. I was also raised by a British mother, who was an awesome woman, but came from a middle-class Liverpool (“scouse”) family, and spent h…

As someone who was born a lower caste hindu, I don't really mind the british caste system at all. Because the british caste system is fluid. If you are born to servant parents and study hard to become a doctor, you end up at the top of the caste system. Not in Hinduism. Even if you become a doctor, but were born a dalit(lowest caste), you will remain a dalit and so will your future generations. There is no escape fro…

What's to stop any Indian from changing their last name? Are there other sure-fire signs of caste status, other than name?

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#427

Post by WhompingWindows » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 1:48 PM UTC

walt0 wrote: post #99

I live and work in India and I would like to throw more light on this. Me and my friends like to joke around that you will never get your dues, either pay raise or promotions unless you have the last names jain, gupta, sharma, verma. I had a guy on my team who was very capable but did not have the right last name, he was being harassed for promotions for 4-5 years. On the other hand the manager class was entirely "ja…

Would it help Indian citizens to change their last name?

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#428

Post by as300 » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 1:49 PM UTC

ReticentVole wrote: post #235

If Indians are so willing to discriminate against eachother on the basis of their own caste, we should be entirely unsurprised when Indians managers and companies discriminate against non-Indians (ie. Americans and other Europeans) in their own countries - of which there are multiple recorded instances. We need to be incredibly careful with the volume of migrants that we are taking in to the West. Issues like FGM, se…

Is this really a comment? That people should be racist towards Indians now?

How about white people being racist towards Asians, of which there are many more instances than the opposite. By your logic what we really need to do is not allow whites to live in the country.

You've taken a very half-baked understanding of caste-based dynamics and ran with it to create a whole immigration policy thesis. I really hope someone like you never ends up in power, for my own sake.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#429

Post by Lio » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 1:49 PM UTC

randomguy2379 wrote: post #422

Lio wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

News Flash: doctor isn't the top of our class system. Even if you become a doctor you still won't be a part of the aristocracy. The best you can do is upper middle class. That might mean you're the head of a FTSE100 company, which is still pretty good but you won't be upper class until the Queen dishes out a knighthood for all great works of charity you'll do. ...and even then though you'll probably still wear the wr…

Sorry I am not entirely familiar with the intricacies of the British class system. My point was more about the British class system having upward mobility. Hindu caste system has none. A dalit doctor is still the lowest caste and all of his future generations will also be lowest caste. While poor farmer brahmins will call themselves highest caste.

No worries at all mate. My post is very tongue in cheek and should be taken lightly.

Although I work closely with many people in India I don't understand the caste system at all. So I'm just listening to the rest of the conversation and being informed.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#430

Post by naveen99 » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 1:56 PM UTC

rutherblood wrote: post #178

I've heard this argument alot. To people saying caste isn't that big of an issue in contemporary india, esp in the urban areas: let's ask an Indian parent if they'd be comfortable having their child marry someone they think is of a "lower caste" than theirs. THIS is the best litmus test, quick, cheap and easy way to clear all doubts on the contemporary caste question. The things is inter-caste marriage is the best wa…

Inter caste marriage doesn’t eliminate caste anymore than interracial marriage eliminates race. Also, there are no protected categories for discrimination when it comes to mating or marriage.

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