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California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

reuters.com

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Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#201

Post by luckylion »

castevictim wrote: post #78

Readers who are not from Indian subcontinent may find this difficult to understand or beleive, let me throw some context. Indian caste system is probably the longest running abuse,racism, human rights violation in the human history. Even,now in some parts of the country people from lowest caste are made to carry human waste on their head[0]. After independence,thanks to rights offered by constitution & reservation by…

> Ask the lower caste team members of any large IT company in India e.g. TCS, Infosys led by a Brahmin manager(who is not an atheist); you'll hear about discrimination they face.

Is the religious component that large? I'd assume that it's simple ingroup/outgroup, like most discrimination.

You don't need to believe that your group is special by divine ruling, you just need to believe that you'll get a better personal outcome if you strengthen people that are like you, as they'll hopefully do the same for you.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#202

Post by twic »

Veen wrote: post #161
hef19898 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically speaking, most ancient societies had something similar, one way or the other. What is really interesting, is that India is the only country I know of, that codified that system religiously and carried it into the 21st century. Not to say that there is an society without discrimination and social disparity. But only a few take it to the level the Indian caste system does. That shows how tricky racism is,…

> African-Americans, in the UK Pakistanis and Indians It’s worth differentiating here. The experiences and outcomes and attitudes towards Pakistanis are very different to those of Indians in the UK. Indians are by far the most successful ethnic minority in the UK while Pakistanis are the least. Three of the most senior positions in the UK government are occupied by people of Indian descent—Priti Patel, Rishi Sunak, a…

There was a striking example of this in the COVID mortality statistics [1]:

> The data shows those males categorised as black are over 4.6 times more likely to die than their white counterparts from the virus. They are followed by Pakistanis/Bangladeshis (just over four times more likely to die), and then Chinese and Indians (just over 2.5 times).

People of Indian and Pakistani background are not significantly genetically different, but there is a substantial difference in how likely they are to die of COVID.

I am a bit skeptical that the difference is due to differential discrimination. I don't think most British racists are smart enough to distinguish people of Indian and Pakistani background. My hunch is that it's due to different patterns of immigration: if Indian immigrants were more likely to be middle-class, and to move to suburbs and small towns, whereas Pakistani and Bangladeshi immigrants were more likely to be working-class, and to move to inner cities, then that would produce the kinds of demographic difference that could explain the COVID disparity.

[1] https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-its-impact-cannot-be...

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#203

Post by dang »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #151
dang wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't take HN threads further into religious flamewar. If you have corrective information, that's great, but provide it neutrally. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Lots of unchecked rampant generalizing and evidence-free racism from new accounts in this thread towards Hindus and Indians. So now anecdotes spilling vitriol are allowed?

Of course not. But what are the posts you're referring to? As far as I can tell, most of the discussion in this thread is by Indians, Indian expats, and people of Indian background, sharing their experiences. But I haven't read the entire thread.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#204

Post by ramraj07 »

olcor wrote: post #80
ramraj07 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have experienced caste-based "weirdness" of a slightly different flavor - I look like a brahmin (the highest caste), but am not one. Every once in a while I'll meet some indian-origin guy who's brahmin who will come ask me if I am okay with eating that tortilla since it contains lard. Once I let it deliberately slip that I'm not in-fact brahmin, they will be like, "oh" and change topics. The oh always sounds to me…

> eating that tortilla since it contains lard I'm not a Brahmin (and am technically from a much "lower caste") and I wouldn't eat lard (I'm a vegetarian). IMO caste and vegetarianism are different concepts. While certain castes/communities/regions might promote vegetarianism and some might not, I'm not sure if they're always an identifying marker. A lot of people in India are vegetarian for a multitude of reasons and…

I'm actually vegetarian myself, though I typically don't assume tortillas contain lard (unless the places name is actually in spanish lol). This particular example (because we had a deeper conversation) was definitely about how Brahmins were supposed to be pure.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#205

Post by linlucas »

saagarjha wrote: post #193
idontcare634 wrote: post #175

As a former employee of Cisco and having been in the Silicon Valley for 10+ years, I can say that I have witnessed extreme casteism and nepotism in Cisco. There was a saying I heard a few years back that one of the criteria to get hired in one of the Cisco guaranteed acquisition spinoffs is that you wear a thread (called Janeu - worn by high caste Hindus over their shoulder and hidden inside shirt). If there is one c…

As far as I understand, you’re supposed to wear that thread in a way that would keep it hidden when wearing normal work attire. If that’s so, how would others know you had one? Would you secretly flash them at each other like a gang symbol?

The thought of middle aged Indian dudes flashing white threads at each other just made my day, thank you

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#206

Post by lki876 »

saagarjha wrote: post #198
lki876 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Caste is another term for race. Both terms are not terms that designate bioligical properties... Caste is based on profession.

*Was based on profession.

No it still is. It's just not based on YOUR profession that YOU are doing NOW.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#207

Post by ramraj07 »

olcor wrote: post #140
9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not 1:1, but there's a clear correlation. To caricature a bit, the Brahmins at the top of the hierarchy can afford to have an elaborate "pure" vegetarian diet with lots of ghee etc (the Jains, mentioned earlier, even exclude root vegetables that would kill the plant), somewhere around the middle of the pile you start eating animals because you need to get your protein where you can, and at the very bottom are th…

Yes well if we want to go all Veblen, we can see that throughout the world, not just India. But let us be real here, there are a lot of people in poverty following vegetarian diets, especially because meat doesn't always come cheap in India, and dal/milk relatively are. Some follow it because they were raised in a vegetarian culture. Some do it because they dislike the thought of eating animals. Brahmins aren't alway…

I straddled a lot of classes growing up in India, and I can assure you that most people don't eat meat "to get their protein". If they are culturally inclined to do so, they'll eat it because it's tasty, it's a delicacy. I know a couple families which used to be able to afford chicken only once every few months. They were definitely impoverished, but when you're impoverished in India you definitely can't afford meat (the government has rations of rice, sugar etc, and you barely afford some basic veggies -meat is typically 5-10x more expensive). Heck, even eggs are too expensive for a large fraction of the poor here.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#208

Post by sbierwagen »

himinlomax wrote: post #194
peroporque wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't people just change their last name? I imagine if suddenly everyone's last name was Gupta, that kind of discrimination would become difficult.

For some reason this reminds me of this Senegalese immigrant to France who, upon receiving citizenship, petitioned to have his legal name changed to better reflect his new identity. He chose "Charles de Gaulle." This was 30 years ago, I don't remember if he was successful.

For those unfamiliar with French history: the original Charles de Gaulle was born in Lille, France, in 1890, and was the leader of the French government in exile during WW2. Taking his name would be something like an American immigrant naming themselves George Washington.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#209

Post by hef19898 »

twic wrote: post #202
Veen wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> African-Americans, in the UK Pakistanis and Indians It’s worth differentiating here. The experiences and outcomes and attitudes towards Pakistanis are very different to those of Indians in the UK. Indians are by far the most successful ethnic minority in the UK while Pakistanis are the least. Three of the most senior positions in the UK government are occupied by people of Indian descent—Priti Patel, Rishi Sunak, a…

There was a striking example of this in the COVID mortality statistics [1]: > The data shows those males categorised as black are over 4.6 times more likely to die than their white counterparts from the virus. They are followed by Pakistanis/Bangladeshis (just over four times more likely to die), and then Chinese and Indians (just over 2.5 times). People of Indian and Pakistani background are not significantly geneti…

This mortality question is one that really intrigues me. Minorities have higher rates in the US and the UK for example. I didn't see any numbers for Germany so far, and France isn't collecting data based on "race" (for lack of a better term).

What would really be interessting is to break the mortality down by income and poverty. And than compare it to income an poverty based on race, where such numbers are available (so obviously not France). My hunch tells me mortallity is first related to social and financial circumstances, which are themselves directly related to race / being a minority / being poor. Maybe nitpicking, so, because it still tells us something about discrimination, doesn't it?

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#210

Post by rutherblood »

saagarjha wrote: post #189
rutherblood wrote: post #178

I've heard this argument alot. To people saying caste isn't that big of an issue in contemporary india, esp in the urban areas: let's ask an Indian parent if they'd be comfortable having their child marry someone they think is of a "lower caste" than theirs. THIS is the best litmus test, quick, cheap and easy way to clear all doubts on the contemporary caste question. The things is inter-caste marriage is the best wa…

> let's ask an Indian parent if they'd be comfortable having their child marry someone they think is of a "lower caste" than theirs I have found that one of the quickest ways to be sure that the answer you get for that question matches what you’d like is to open them up to the possibility you might not get married at all. If my parents ever cared about that, they sure don’t now, and they’re nowhere near desperate ;)

IMO Indian parents are some of most sly people to walk earth. They coerce, emotionally blackmail and are obsessive about controlling their child's lives be it professional, educational, romantic decisions. Sometimes I think the quote "Most parents would do anything for their child except let them be who they are" is specifically made for the Indian boomer generation.
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