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China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

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Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#171
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And this system is largely responsible for limiting ability of Hong Kong citizens to control political power in their city Relative to what? Relative to what they had in place before? Or relative to some system you've dreamed up?

Relative to universal suffrage with elected representatives (be it party or individual-based). Read about the current system and why the law, which has caused the previous protests, got accepted, while being vastly unpopular among citizens.

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Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#172
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're asking for war, for the UK or US to engage China. That is too much to ask. Neither the UK or US has the will or the ability to wage such a war. China wants Hong Kong to be part of it and it will get it just like Russia got Crimea. There are no repercussions to China passing laws and doing as they see fit. They could full out abolish the entire agreement and bring HK under Chinese rule like the mainland if the…

> They're asking for war This is a gross misinterpretation. What the protestors actually wanted was: - For the UK to grant BN(O) holders citizenship to show that they are no longer bound by the Sino-UK Joint Declaration. - For the US to revoke Hong Kong's special status (the Hong Kong Policy Act).

> For the UK to grant BN(O) holders citizenship to show that they are no longer bound by the Sino-UK Joint Declaration.

BN(O)s are already British Nationals (hence the 'BN'), what they're missing is Right of Abode in the UK.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#173

This is the death knell for Hong Kong and for One Country, Two Systems -- which has effectively been over in Macau for years. I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership -- actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world. While of course the UK is responsible for policing the handover agreement, it's been too busy staring dow…

Imo, the current leadership, as a whole, has taken a far more aggressive stance against China than any of their predecessors. Not saying the US will free Hong Kong single-handedly, but there's progress. Some senators like Josh Hawley are very active in this issue. Many Hong Kongers will choose to flee, but more choose to stay. The future for Hong Kong is a grim one, and it's getting closer and closer to the worst sce…

The current US administration doesn't have a foreign policy. It barely has a domestic policy. At most it has a collection of excited utterances.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#174
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Millions of people risking their lives to beg the government to stop murdering people and police engaging in widespread violent crackdown against those people demonstrating is exactly what happens in those countries. I don’t know how systematic police murder and beating up peaceful protestors looks different to you when it happens in the US and when it happens elsewhere. What is it about the anthem or flag that makes…

> Look at Hong Kong protests, then look at police beating people in cities across the US it’s the same. > What are the concessions from the US government? A few minor police reforms to encourage cops to stop killing minorities on camera, qualified immunity is still here, so basically nothing. US’s reaction is hugely different than HK’s. Not a single HK cop was actually penalized, let alone fired or charged, for their…

>And you tell me US is the same as HK?

You are comparing what happened in one city against what happened across the entire country. Look at the actions of the NYPD during these protests. They have also received virtually no punishment despite their range of heinous acts.

An occasional incident nationwide that drives up enough outrage to force a punishment doesn't grant us some moral high ground.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#175
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can look at it that way sure. The USA benefits from global stability and trade, but don't pretend the USA's trading and defence partners don't benefit as well. It's a mutually beneficial relationship. In contrast, how many countries have that sort of relationship with Russia or China? You could argue Syria has benefited from Russian patronage, but in reality Russia doesn't care at all about Syria, only it's base…

> The key difference is that the USA has a reputation to protect. It has so many allies, both military and economic, that if it sells out one of them for purely transactional gain, it weakens it's relationships with all it's other partners. You do know about the industrial espionage by Echelon, right? On that front that pretty much puts US in the same bucket as China. Only 1 example of many: "In 1999, Enercon, a Germ…

Yes I know about it. Allies have always engaged in snooping and peripheral intelligence operations against each other. As long as it doesn’t go after vital national interests, or involve really nasty stuff like killings and such, it’s just part of the rough and tumble of international affairs. You have to look at the full picture, not get hung up over single incidents.

Note German intelligence wasn’t so much complaining that the Americans did it, as much as that they weren’t allowed to do it back.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#176
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can look at it that way sure. The USA benefits from global stability and trade, but don't pretend the USA's trading and defence partners don't benefit as well. It's a mutually beneficial relationship. In contrast, how many countries have that sort of relationship with Russia or China? You could argue Syria has benefited from Russian patronage, but in reality Russia doesn't care at all about Syria, only it's base…

>but don't pretend the USA's trading and defence partners don't benefit as well. It's a mutually beneficial relationship. How has Iraq benefited? What benefit do the people of Saudi Arabia see from our relationship? How many of the US led South American regime changes have benefitted the populace? >It has so many allies, both military and economic, that if it sells out one of them for purely transactional gain, it we…

Iraq are our allies against ISIS, they did most of the actual on the ground fighting. Saudi Arabia was terrified Saddam would attack them next, and we now know that was his intended next move after a Kuwait. Also the US is the prime obstacle to Iranian operations against the Saudis. SA spends big on defence, but they’re hopelessly inexperienced, while Iran has plenty of military experience from the wars with a Iraq and operations in Syria. They may look under equipped on paper, but they’d eat SA for breakfast in an actual conflict.

America’s efforts at regime change in the America’s are an appalling catalogue of screwups and bloody disasters. No argument there.

But then NATO has been a useful and very effective alliance, effectively keeping Russia in check. Ask the Baltic States or the Eastern European states how they feel about it. We’ve had setbacks like Ukraine, but boy it could have been a _lot_ worse. Taiwan, South Korea, the Philippines and Japan have benefited hugely. Even Vietnam is now becoming a regional ally.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#177
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but don't pretend the USA's trading and defence partners don't benefit as well. It's a mutually beneficial relationship. How has Iraq benefited? What benefit do the people of Saudi Arabia see from our relationship? How many of the US led South American regime changes have benefitted the populace? >It has so many allies, both military and economic, that if it sells out one of them for purely transactional gain, it we…

Iraq are our allies against ISIS, they did most of the actual on the ground fighting. Saudi Arabia was terrified Saddam would attack them next, and we now know that was his intended next move after a Kuwait. Also the US is the prime obstacle to Iranian operations against the Saudis. SA spends big on defence, but they’re hopelessly inexperienced, while Iran has plenty of military experience from the wars with a Iraq a…

>Iraq are our allies against ISIS, they did most of the actual on the ground fighting.

ISIS exists because of US action, they are not benefitting from this.

>Saudi Arabia was terrified Saddam would attack them next, and we now know that was his intended next move after a Kuwait.

Not only is this just untrue, Saddam Hussein discussed the invasion of Kuwait with the US before the invasion, our deployment of troops in Saudi Arabia stemming from that event has caused numerous problems for the people of the country.

>Also the US is the prime obstacle to Iranian operations against the Saudis

Though I'm not sure how the citizens of Saudi Arabia are benefitting from this in your version of events, the Saudi troops should be well trained from their ongoing war in Yemen.

>But then NATO has been a useful and very effective alliance, effectively keeping Russia in check. Ask the Baltic States or the Eastern European states how they feel about it

On the other hand, NATO encroachment could be blamed for much of Russia's aggression. Crimea lasted twenty years under Ukrainian control after all, but would NATO continue letting Russia access it's Black Sea port?

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#178

As someone who lives inside China I just hope this will encourage more direct and indirect confrontations with the system that defines the current central government i.e. among the intellects and influentials in China, now that a pillar of the freedom of Chinese expression is on its way to unnatural erosion under the paradigm introduced by this new law unto Hong Kong, that of which used to be where grey areas of Chin…

What is the incentive for someone to "confront" the system in China? It means imprisonment, career destruction, the destruction of their family's wealth and well-being, and possibly death. The way to change a belligerent governmental system isn't through direct confrontation unless you can literally mobilize a majority of the population - it is by changing it from within. Become part of the system, spread an ideology…

[deleted]

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#179

As someone who lives inside China I just hope this will encourage more direct and indirect confrontations with the system that defines the current central government i.e. among the intellects and influentials in China, now that a pillar of the freedom of Chinese expression is on its way to unnatural erosion under the paradigm introduced by this new law unto Hong Kong, that of which used to be where grey areas of Chin…

What is the incentive for someone to "confront" the system in China? It means imprisonment, career destruction, the destruction of their family's wealth and well-being, and possibly death. The way to change a belligerent governmental system isn't through direct confrontation unless you can literally mobilize a majority of the population - it is by changing it from within. Become part of the system, spread an ideology…

“Be extremely subtle even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate.” ― Sun Tzu

I speak not of confrontation with the central government but confrontation with many aspects of the things in "the system" that currently underlines and defines how the cerntral government thinks and operates.

The ambiguities introduced by the word "system" here is in no means unintentional in that it needs not even be political or geopolitical: it can be cultural, it can be like you said ideological, it can be legalistic, it can be infrastructural or componential, it can even be technological, transnational, game theoretical, self-regulatory, etc. It's a board spectrum having to do with the emergent phenomena in the power structures that spread across different industries and establishments in and outside of China. As much as the Chinese central government is central and monolithic in nature, there are many shades to it, and for everyone involved in running this conglomerate (including those at the top) it is a constrained optimization problem to survive, diversify future risks, etc. Ultimately we are dealing with human nature and the status quo here. There are some beauties and there are lots of ugliness. But it is definitely not immutable. It will continue to change.

What they are currently doing to Hong Kong is shooting themselves in their own foot. It is a very short-sighted move and likely they are aware of the many cons that come with it too. Now the question is what they are going to do next to minimise damage and how the system that constraints them can be confronted to encourage more freedom of Chinese expression.

In the next twenty years China will probably overtake the States in terms of market sizes, but very unlikely in terms of science, art, technologies, etc. And without all those wonderful human endeavors China as of now is and will continue to be (if there are no changes) pretty much just one giant sweatshop, except for small parts of Beijing and Shanghai, etc where the manufactured consent are being examined and there are still traces of liberal arts (and also maybe parts of Yunnan where the hippies live). One could argue that it was necessary for China to position itself as a sweatshop in the post-Mao era (1975~1989) under the darwinism-inspired mindset on national progress [1], but as times change we are coming to a point where "the system" needs to be adjusted to encourage more freedom of Chinese expression and confrontations challenging the status quo. The act of postponing it or doing things aimed to diminish it is very short-sighted, backward-thinking, self-mutilating, and sad, and it would continue to screw up the reward systems of capitalism for innovation domestically, and to an increasing degree around the world due to its sheer market size. And I hope that is not the direction we as a civilisation is heading towards.

“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Confrontation needs not be violent.

[1]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt1tg5mmd

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#180
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are working for it, then yea? Sounds like HKers are working hard for it and on a legal basis it's their right to make their own law within Basic Law , so what's your point here?

I somehow suspect that the Basic Law does not actually give Hong Kong the right to become autonomous. They have the right to make some laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Basic_Law

It does, article one states HK should have high degree of autonomy and etc...

Furthermore, article 23 states that HK should make their own national security law, not China.

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