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China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

bbc.com

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Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#161

Post by yoav »

yoav wrote: post #160
almost_usual wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also a country where millions of people from different backgrounds, religions, and races will unite and march for the justice of minorities. Will outright challenge authority in the street and march until negotiations are made during a pandemic. This does not happen in China or Russia.

Millions of people risking their lives to beg the government to stop murdering people and police engaging in widespread violent crackdown against those people demonstrating is exactly what happens in those countries. I don’t know how systematic police murder and beating up peaceful protestors looks different to you when it happens in the US and when it happens elsewhere. What is it about the anthem or flag that makes…

[flagged]

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#162

Post by eximius »

fiblye wrote: post #53
obiye wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. If you were given the chance to live in the US vs one of the other “empires” would you really choose somewhere else? For all our faults, you know the answer is no.

>Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. This is ridiculous. Do you think China and Russia are operating like an ant colony or something?

Fine, they aspire to power and resources. Is that better?

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#163

Post by _m8pt »

baybal2 wrote: post #159
_m8pt wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Chinese person from north of Shanghai, what in the world do you mean by “indistinguishable by what is in their head from most Russians”????

Similar in what their attitudes are to so many things in life. Thoughts on having a family, marriage, treatment of women, ideas on social status, work, career, material wellbeing, and down to things like hobbies, and free time spending. And their tourists... especially northeastern ones... Everything within cultural gravity of Beijing, and Northeast has been molded very early in history of PRC, and was pretty much an…

Wow. I am a northeastern Chinese. I like Russian people, but all I can say is that this is a very surface level analysis on my culture.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#164

Post by obiye27 »

ric2b wrote: post #149
obiye27 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So stable it has multiple ongoing civil conflicts. Come visit Russia, we didn’t shoot down any airliners this year!

> So stable it has multiple ongoing civil conflicts. Can you mention one?

Crimea/Ukraine. Civil because they stole the land. Chechnya. Literally run by terrorists who murder their own people daily. And let’s throw in the casual assassination of domestic political dissidents as a free one. We should have dealt with Russia the proper way in the Cold War and glassed it end to end. I am hopeful we still will.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#165

Post by obiye27 »

fuoqi wrote: post #132
obiye27 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So stable it has multiple ongoing civil conflicts. Come visit Russia, we didn’t shoot down any airliners this year!

Last civil conflict in Russia was the second Chechen war. By all definitions it's Ukraine in the state of civil war, not Russia. More than 90% of Donbas rebels are Ukrainian citizens. Russia of course supports the pro-Russian side in this conflict, but foreign interference during civil wars is so common, you could call it a rule. And even outside the war zone you can see a strong polarization in Ukrainian society (ju…

Ukraine is not in civil war, Ukraine was invaded. I hope you supported the Iraq war? What a terrible civil conflict we had to get involved in.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#166

Post by obiye27 »

yoav wrote: post #161
yoav wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Millions of people risking their lives to beg the government to stop murdering people and police engaging in widespread violent crackdown against those people demonstrating is exactly what happens in those countries. I don’t know how systematic police murder and beating up peaceful protestors looks different to you when it happens in the US and when it happens elsewhere. What is it about the anthem or flag that makes…

[flagged]

Voter suppression. And you want to compare that to the single party systems of China or Russia? Why do problems with US democracy make you want to abandon it and wallow in misery, and pretend like there is no hope in the world? Why can’t you have a teaspoon of strength and recognize the US is so much closer to real democracy than either of those countries? It’s pathetic.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#167

Post by obiye27 »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #137
obiye wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. If you were given the chance to live in the US vs one of the other “empires” would you really choose somewhere else? For all our faults, you know the answer is no.

>Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. How would these "ideals" stop the Chinese action in Hong Kong? Would they lead us to invading China again to force Hong Kong into Western hands, killing god knows how many millions this time?

Is your argument that HK is better off under Chinese rule, where dissidents will be arrested and tortured? Yeah, maybe it would be better if we killed millions of Chinese. Maybe at some point they’ll learn the lesson.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#168

Post by hkmaxpro »

yoav wrote: post #160
almost_usual wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also a country where millions of people from different backgrounds, religions, and races will unite and march for the justice of minorities. Will outright challenge authority in the street and march until negotiations are made during a pandemic. This does not happen in China or Russia.

Millions of people risking their lives to beg the government to stop murdering people and police engaging in widespread violent crackdown against those people demonstrating is exactly what happens in those countries. I don’t know how systematic police murder and beating up peaceful protestors looks different to you when it happens in the US and when it happens elsewhere. What is it about the anthem or flag that makes…

> Look at Hong Kong protests, then look at police beating people in cities across the US it’s the same.

> What are the concessions from the US government? A few minor police reforms to encourage cops to stop killing minorities on camera, qualified immunity is still here, so basically nothing.

US’s reaction is hugely different than HK’s.

Not a single HK cop was actually penalized, let alone fired or charged, for their misconducts during the year long protests. The only HK cop that was charged was the one who posted posters criticizing the police force. [1]

By contrast, numerous US cops were fired and charged. Not to mention two weeks before George Floyd was killed, a South Asian was also killed by HK cops by kneeing on his neck. [2] The victim’s name wasn’t made public, not a single HK cop was penalized, and they went on to keep doing the same to HK protesters a month later (no casualty this time) [3].

Disbanding the HK police is one of the core demands of Hong Kong protesters [4]. While US has made some police reforms, nothing like this happened in Hong Kong, except HK police just got more powerful under the new National Security Law.

And you tell me US is the same as HK?

[1] http://www.rfi.fr/tw/%E6%94%BF%E6%B2%BB/20200118-%E4%BC%91%E... (in Chinese)

[2] https://www.hk01.com/%E7%AA%81%E7%99%BC/471390/%E9%9D%9E%E8%... (in Chinese)

[3] https://hongkongfp.com/2020/06/15/i-couldnt-breathe-hong-kon...

[4] https://news.ltn.com.tw/news/world/breakingnews/2925727 (in Chinese)

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#169

Post by TheGallopedHigh »

justicezyx wrote: post #103
ksec wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um.... There were hundred of other thoughts at the time and Confucianism hasn't risen . Confucianism was used as a tool to solidify the power within the Empire. The only thing you will do is kneel and obey. And China aspires to long-term stability first is not about China in itself, but the long term control of power. Which for thousands of years has proved what should now be a famous line, Absolute Power corrupts ab…

I cannot help to ask: what are your background on Chinese history? What do you recommend for an overview on Confucius? You seem articulate thousands of years of history, and one of the most ancient philosophy and culture system, and it’s impact in so few words that I dare not to challenge - because, as a Chinese myself, I never gained enough understanding on Confucius, and had no capacity to summarize its impact or o…

A great new-ish podcast is: The Fall of Civilizations Podcast. They have one on the Han dynasty, the first in China’s history. Worth a listen.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U9W7cOMGXyA

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#170

Post by yoav »

hkmaxpro wrote: post #168
yoav wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Millions of people risking their lives to beg the government to stop murdering people and police engaging in widespread violent crackdown against those people demonstrating is exactly what happens in those countries. I don’t know how systematic police murder and beating up peaceful protestors looks different to you when it happens in the US and when it happens elsewhere. What is it about the anthem or flag that makes…

> Look at Hong Kong protests, then look at police beating people in cities across the US it’s the same. > What are the concessions from the US government? A few minor police reforms to encourage cops to stop killing minorities on camera, qualified immunity is still here, so basically nothing. US’s reaction is hugely different than HK’s. Not a single HK cop was actually penalized, let alone fired or charged, for their…

For every cop held accountable there are hundreds more committing the same crimes who are protected by the state. While cell phones are a new invention where the protected class in the US is now seeing the oppression that many citizens have been living with, it’s not new. The state has known the whole time and intentionally hidden it.

Doing the bare minimum is just PR, eg: cops kneeling with protestors and then an hour later using chemical weapons and beating on the same peaceful protestors.

If the distinction is: China addresses challenges to oppression with censorship while the US addresses it with marketing and ineffectual “concessions” then we’re saying the same thing.

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