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YouTube bans Stefan Molyneux, David Duke, Richard Spencer for hate speech

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Re: YouTube bans Stefan Molyneux, David Duke, Richard Spencer for hate speech

#891

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They call it "cancel culture" in an attempt to express that people are too willing to boycott nowadays. Certainly a boycott is sometimes justified, but it's a problem if people start organizing a boycott every time they hear an offensive statement.

Please give some examples of where cancel culture has taken things too far.

A Hispanic man in my state got fired 2 weeks ago, because an activist mistakenly thought he looked white and was making an OK sign.

But really, even banning people from Youtube for saying offensive things is too far. The slogan "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" used to be a powerful summary of an ideal we aspired to. Nowadays, I get the impression that most people can't even process it; I expect you'd argue that defending Molyneux's right to spread his obnoxious views means I'm approving of those views.

Re: YouTube bans Stefan Molyneux, David Duke, Richard Spencer for hate speech

#892
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "adjacent" concept has no meaning. Paraphrasing a point I made on Twitter recently: - Richard Spencer: evil. Created 'alt right' movement. - Ben Shapiro: called 'alt right' because he's right wing - Joe Rogan: called 'alt right' because he talked to Ben - Bernie Sanders supporters: called 'alt right' because Joe endorsed Bernie. Ergo: by this logic Karl Marx could be considered 'alt right' Molyneaux might be awf…

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-...

No. All the examples except the Karl Marx one are ridiculous, yet you can find ample evidence of them all via Twitter.

Is there a logical fallacy for 'adjacent?' It probably falls under straw man but it might have a specific name.

Re: YouTube bans Stefan Molyneux, David Duke, Richard Spencer for hate speech

#893
post #812

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You implied they were true (or at least questioned it). I gave my arguments as to why I think they are both false, A) being a lack of evidence, B) imperialism as a more believable explanation with more evidence. Ball is in your court

Now rate limit is over: My post didn't say write that Molyneux's statements were true. My post didn't 'imply' they were true either - they provided possible arguments both for and against. The point is that you disagreeing, taking offence, or providing alternative explanations has no bearing on what is true. Which is true. A. You did not state lack of evidence. You stated that you 'disagreed pretty hard'. Please read…

Alright man and piss is stored in the balls

Re: YouTube bans Stefan Molyneux, David Duke, Richard Spencer for hate speech

#894
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joe Rogan is now alt right? That is a quixotic ambition. Let the fools make fools of themselves. When there are stupid ideas proposed in the podcast, I just laugh at it or talk to somebody about it. As an example, I listened to one of those white supremacy former academics, can’t remember who, and he quips midway through the lecture that Western society developed faster because... we are unique in having a sense of s…

Didn't say he was alt right, but he doesn't use his massive platform responsibly. There's a difference between interviewing a presidential candidate and interviewing a white supremacist.

Are you saying Joe interviewed a white supremacist? Who?

Re: YouTube bans Stefan Molyneux, David Duke, Richard Spencer for hate speech

#895

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A purge of white supremacists sounds great to me.

It does to me, too. Until I realize that some people are now defining silence as complicity with white supremacy. So let's hope that definition doesn't spread, right?

Mandatory posting? Count me in.

Re: YouTube bans Stefan Molyneux, David Duke, Richard Spencer for hate speech

#896

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Democracy and Distrust, Ely says rules like the First Amendment are important because they secure the channels of democracy; in his framing, it's important that the government not suppress speech because doing so prevents the people from governing. It's not because speech is an intrinsic or natural right, which is an idea he argues against. That made sense to me when I read it. The idea of a universal principle of…

I would/do have a problem with that idea being supressed. The path to defeating a truly bad idea is to publicly flog it, not pretend it doesn't exist.

No. It takes more time to rebut ridiculous ideas than to generate them. At some point along the spectrum of consensus, the burden shifts to the person propagating the idea; otherwise, all we're doing is wasting time feeding the trolls.

Re: YouTube bans Stefan Molyneux, David Duke, Richard Spencer for hate speech

#897

It's a purge. It won't stop with these three. The censorship will continue to get worse and be disproportionately applied to those on the right until all is left with the world. Conservatism has a place in society. I'm not endorsing any of these guys viewpoints nor am I associating them with conservatism in general, because it's a broad group of over 100 million people in the U.S. with a diverse range of opinions tha…

>Conservatism has a place in society. Literal white supremacists and nazis however, do not. Those people should be pushed so far off any platform that their only option left is to be the crazies screaming on Times Square that the end of the world is coming. These people actively contributed to fostering hatred in societies, And no, you will not fight them off with debates. The time it takes you to rebuke a single one…

Except Molyneux is not a "literal white supremacist and nazi". He is a conservative.

Re: YouTube bans Stefan Molyneux, David Duke, Richard Spencer for hate speech

#898

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stephen Molyneux is a single-minded crusader against corporal punishment of children. He cites IQ and demographic statistics as evidence that the high incidents of corporal punishment among African-Americans is harmful to the population. But untangling that ball of wax is a lot harder than calling him a racist and getting on with life isn't it?

Your comment does not appear to prove that Stephen Molyneux is not a racist. Can you explain why you think it does?

It's a good question politely asked, so uncomfortable as the subject makes me I'm going to try. Like I said though, this is an awful ball of wax and it feels dirty to approach it. I'm going to try and tackle it via the question of how one identifies a racist. Let me start with a generic, emotionally less charged example and then try to relate that to the specifics of the Molyneux story.

Suppose two people are talking. The first says, "Minority X children score below the national average on IQ tests. I bet it's because minority X children are more likely to be exposed to lead in tapwater. Our country should have an all-hands on deck effort to solve the lead-in-tapwater problem" The other responds: "I am not interested in any discussion that begins with 'minority X children score below...'. You are a racist for saying this and I don't listen to policy proposals from racists".

Which of these two is the racist? By the modern definition, it's clearly the second, because he's arguing for a status quo that disadvantages minority X. Whether his heart is in the right place or not, he's contributing to systemic oppression by refusing to act in the face of injustice and therefore a racist. By the classic definition, it's just as clearly the first because he is asserting a difference between races. Whether his heart is in the right place or not, he's deepening racial divisions by this rhetoric and therefore a racist.

Hopefully we can agree on those definitions, if not the rest of this comment is pointless. Regardless, and assuming we can, let's bring this to the topic at hand.

African-Americans are Molyneux's 'Minority X' and child corporal punishment is his 'lead-in-tapwater'. Let's see first how he fares by the modern definition of racism. The wrinkle here might be that lead in tapwater is done to a population while corporal punishment is done by a population. This might seem to make it apples and oranges, but I'd disagree. Anyone who wished could make the case that higher rates of corporal punishment are self-evidently fallout from the abuses of colonialism, and done to the African-American population no less than leaded tapwater.

What's the standard under this definition for determining whether a person is a racist? I would propose the following two tests: if their professed beliefs are sincerely held, and if their proposals would lessen inequality assuming their premise is correct, then that person is not a racist. They may be mistaken in their premises, but in that case it is up to other non-racists to educate them, and there is no use for hostility in that process. By that standard, how does Molyneux fare? I think his life provides ample evidence that his beliefs were sincerely held. He became a public intellectual and subjected himself to ongoing, harsh criticism because he believed it was important people hear his ideas. He spoke often about corporal punishment of children and not once did he vary his message. As to the second test, if his premise is correct that higher rates of corporal punishment lead to worse education outcomes for African Americans, then it's fairly obvious that his proposal of no corporal punishment anywhere would help close the gap. Having listened to him speak, I genuinely believe that if his proposal was accepted and the result was that his children faced tougher competition for jobs and scholarships, he would consider it the best possible outcome and validation of his beliefs. So by that standard, I would definitively judge him 'not racist'.

Of course, Molyneux never made any of these arguments because like most people born before 1982, he would use the classical definition of racism and probably refuse to cede the linguistic territory necessary to make any of the foregoing arguments. The way to not be racist by the classical definition is much simpler and requires no arguments about colonial fallout. One must simply start the argument by saying 'inner city children...' instead of 'minority x children...' and one's thoughts on race are one's own affair. The trouble with that approach is, people born after 1982 immediately start shouting about dog whistles and secret racism, and one finds oneself isolated with people who increasingly egg one on to just name the races in question. I believe this is what happened with Molyneux. When I first encountered him, he seemed to be making a good-faith effort to talk about specific demographics instead of the races over represented in them. By the time I lost interest in his content, I must admit, he was no longer making that effort nor did the bulk of his audience want him to.

So on deeper reflection, I think it was a bit disingenuous of me to judge Molyneux only by one set of standards. By what is probably his own definition of racism - and though I'm conversant in both linguistic systems, the definition I use in private thought - he did commit racism. My only excuse is that I cede linguistic territory as instinctively as Molyneux would defend it, and it didn't occur to me much harm could be done thereby. I'll walk my statement back and say that Molyneux weaponized racism for an agenda that, had it succeeded, would have reduced racial inequality.

Re: YouTube bans Stefan Molyneux, David Duke, Richard Spencer for hate speech

#899

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if he had progressed towards cuddly-bear Molyneux instead of I-want-to-run-a-cult Molyneux This is an interesting thing I don't hear talked about much. People often criticize social media because it recommends increasingly extreme content to consumers because doing so drives up engagement. But what I hear less often is how the reward systems of social media radicalize producers . If you make your living off YouTube…

Yes, that's interesting. And it would yield the same boiling frog effect as recommendation systems getting more extreme, because the existing audience of the creator is slowly getting dragged along. I'm assuming it took years for Molyneux to progress from being a quirky libertarian channel to open hate. There was no single video posted that was like "I've decided I hate women", which would at least give the audience…

Yes, it's such a weird feedback loop. The leader creates the cult at the same time that the cult creates the leader.

At a more innocuous level, you can see a similar progression in a lot of YouTubers if you dig back through their older videos. Many people start out pretty normal and low-key in their videos. But over time, they become more emotive, expressive, and over the top, until eventually you get to "HEY YOUTUBERS IT'S YA BOY HERE SMASH THAT LIKE BUTTON YEAH LET'S GET IT STARTED..."

I don't think any of them chose to do that, it's just that the feedback loop is hard to fight.

Re: YouTube bans Stefan Molyneux, David Duke, Richard Spencer for hate speech

#900

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Edit: Free speech absolutists, isn't down-voting my comment moderation? Ironic. How about just replying instead. I'm willing to engage in debate. Hey if you don't like it, build your own hacker news.

Except in this case its not moderators of the site removing my content, its just people who can't think for themselves slapping the down button on any contrary opinion while saying they support contrary opinions except the contrary opinions that they support of full of hate speech and parroted fascist dog whistles while trying to squash any semblance of reasonable discourse.

> full of hate speech and parroted fascist dog whistles

> trying to squash any semblance of reasonable discourse

pot. kettle.

The fact that you jump to "fascist dog whistles" demonstrates that you are the one doing the parroting.

Do you think liberal democracy and globalized capitalism are somehow less "evil"? Meanwhile: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction

I myself subscribe to deep ecology, so I see this political name-calling and spineless finger pointing as short-sighted and victim to herd mentality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_ecology

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