People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study • Hacker News Board

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#21

Post by YinglingLight » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:24 PM UTC

JshWright wrote: post #16

silveroriole wrote: post #9

Makes sense. I’d like to see an experiment done with reading comprehension as well as real memories. When I read something, I hear and see it. I’m reading it out loud in my mind and I either have instant visual associations with certain words (e.g. when I read the word aphantasia I think of the hippo from Fantasia, when I see the word tea I instantly ‘see’ a teacup) or I visualise the scene (like where they have the…

I do not see/hear/smell/taste anything with my "mind". Speaking from my own personal experience, my reading comprehension doesn't seem to suffer at all, and the speed at which I read seems to be much faster than average (for instance, if my wife and I are reading the same page of text, I'm done long before she is).

I'd take slower reading speed for the ability to recollect my childhood home, or the face of my wife when she's away.

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#22

Post by falsaberN1 » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:24 PM UTC

silveroriole wrote: post #9

Makes sense. I’d like to see an experiment done with reading comprehension as well as real memories. When I read something, I hear and see it. I’m reading it out loud in my mind and I either have instant visual associations with certain words (e.g. when I read the word aphantasia I think of the hippo from Fantasia, when I see the word tea I instantly ‘see’ a teacup) or I visualise the scene (like where they have the…

For me reading is pretty much making a movie in my head. Characters have their distinct "voice", and I fully form the scenario as if seen through a lens. Like, the book is giving me the details and I put them together as a mental construct of sorts.

I noticed this "ability" is very useful for stuff like studying. Like, if I arrange the data to study in a table or graph, it'll be easy to remember the shape and colors of the table/graph, giving me a hint on how many elements a group has or stuff like that.

I used to read a lot as a child, unfortunately I haven't seen a book I'm feeling interested in reading in a while, so I mostly abuse this "skill" by drawing or making games.

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#23

Post by JshWright » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:25 PM UTC

YinglingLight wrote: post #21

JshWright wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not see/hear/smell/taste anything with my "mind". Speaking from my own personal experience, my reading comprehension doesn't seem to suffer at all, and the speed at which I read seems to be much faster than average (for instance, if my wife and I are reading the same page of text, I'm done long before she is).

I'd take slower reading speed for the ability to recollect my childhood home, or the face of my wife when she's away.

Yep, given the choice, I would too.

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#24

Post by Tor3 » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:25 PM UTC

silveroriole wrote: post #9

Makes sense. I’d like to see an experiment done with reading comprehension as well as real memories. When I read something, I hear and see it. I’m reading it out loud in my mind and I either have instant visual associations with certain words (e.g. when I read the word aphantasia I think of the hippo from Fantasia, when I see the word tea I instantly ‘see’ a teacup) or I visualise the scene (like where they have the…

>I have no idea how reading would work without at least hearing it though. If you told me to read without doing this stuff it would be like telling me to think without having thoughts. Impossible.

I read a lot - and the story unfolds in my mind's eye. But I don't hear the dialog as sound, unless I explicitly want to (if I wish to hear a sentence in my mind, using a friend's voice, I can). I don't even "read" the book (including the dialog), except at the beginning. When I get into the story it's just in the mind, I don't consciously read. And the dialog is also not voiced, it just "is". Which is one reason I've never felt that strange, foreign, or difficult-to-pronounce names are a problem (a complaint I often see in e.g. Amazon reviews). Never had that problem. And if I try to add a voice to a spoken sentence the reading slows down to "natural" speed, which is way way too slow for me.

(As for hearing sounds in my mind in general - I'm very susceptible to ear worms, and I don't use a car stereo - if I want to hear music I just hear it, in my mind.)

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#25

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:25 PM UTC

falsaberN1 wrote: post #6

throw1234651234 wrote: post #2

"Not everyone can see pictures in their minds when they close their eyes and summon thoughts - an ability many of us take for granted." I used to be into visualization as focus training. I can't "see" and change (move, change color) shapes in my mind at all. Artists I know claim to be able to do this. Obviously, Tesla (, Nikola) supposedly did this. For those who can do it - to what degree can you do it? Can you imag…

Characters, structures, vehicles, robots, pretty much anything I would like to draw or design. With color (or at least enough awareness to know a certain shape or area is in a specific color). I can also "listen" to music, unfortunately I'm really bad at creating new music so this skill is utterly useless for anything but remembering songs with just one listen or so. At night before falling asleep it's pretty much li…

[deleted]

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#26

Post by tgb » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:30 PM UTC

missingrib wrote: post #3

I'm worried I have this but I'm not completely sure I do. My dreams are not very vivid at all and usually I just "know" that things are happening in them instead of vividly seeing what's going on. However I can hear music very clearly in my head. If asked to visualize, say, an apple in my head I really don't see it very vividly at all. It's depressing if I'm being honest.

Your descriptions of dreams is what my visual imagination is like, but my dreams are completely vivid. On rare occaisions, I'm aware of the transition from non-dream to dream which is like a lightbulb switching on and suddenly my visual imagination goes from "there exists a face" to "I see a face, with color and texture and motion as if it were in front of me".

For sound, I can imagine sound and hear it essentially exactly as if I were to actually hear it, but the only sounds I can imagine are sounds I can make myself. I can't imagine a song per se but I can imagine myself humming it. Same as above, when on the verge of sleep my sound imagination can switch on and I hear music as if I were at a concert hall - dramatically different from my day-to-day experience.

Because of this, I can assure you that there are real differences between people's experiences, despite what others might tell you.

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#27

Post by JshWright » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:31 PM UTC

3f34f34f wrote: post #20

raxxorrax wrote: post #5

How would you test such a condition? When I paint (bloody amateur) I certainly can imagine a generic tree or house or something specific like my house or my garden tree. The latter takes more form of an image, but it is still quite abstract. It is not really a picture, it is a memory and quite fleeting. But if I would see a real picture, I would go to the doc. What do you mean they cannot conjure an image. If you ask…

I think most people and journalists who speak about aphantasia are exaggerating or misleading others. If you actually are able to imagine an picture with your eyes open and have it cover the real world, that's called hallucinating. Some people can visualise things stronger than others, some cannot at all, but let's not pretend like actual visualisation (hallucinating) is the norm or that more than a few people on ear…

I think you're the one exaggerating here...

I don't see anyone claiming that they are "able to imagine an picture with [their] eyes open and have it cover the real world".

You specified "eyes open". Are you able to visualize things with your eyes closed?

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#28

Post by JshWright » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:34 PM UTC

greenonions wrote: post #7

throw1234651234 wrote: post #2

"Not everyone can see pictures in their minds when they close their eyes and summon thoughts - an ability many of us take for granted." I used to be into visualization as focus training. I can't "see" and change (move, change color) shapes in my mind at all. Artists I know claim to be able to do this. Obviously, Tesla (, Nikola) supposedly did this. For those who can do it - to what degree can you do it? Can you imag…

Yes, and there are no real limits to this. I can picture a Rubik's cube dominating the Manhattan skyline. I can also picture abstract images with no connection to the real world, that have emotions associated with them. I believe my wife cannot make images, and the differences between us that result are pretty wild. I'm dramatically better with directions and maps because she can't make a mental model of the map and…

It's crazy how varied everyone's experiences are. I can't visualize anything at all, but have a very strong spatial sense, and navigate much better than my wife does (who can visualize things very vividly).

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#29

Post by jjk166 » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:38 PM UTC

3f34f34f wrote: post #12

missingrib wrote: post #3

I'm worried I have this but I'm not completely sure I do. My dreams are not very vivid at all and usually I just "know" that things are happening in them instead of vividly seeing what's going on. However I can hear music very clearly in my head. If asked to visualize, say, an apple in my head I really don't see it very vividly at all. It's depressing if I'm being honest.

No one on earth can 'visualise' an image in their head as if they were seeing it in real life. This entire fiasco is just people on different spectrums of mental picturing that are freaking out because they are misinterpreting what aphantasia is. I assure you you are most likely normal, and it's common to not recite a sentence word for word or picture an object perfectly. Others can do it very well. Just like you can…

Plenty of people can visualize an image in their head as if they are seeing it in real life. As one of those people, trust me that if your brain is set up to work that way, it's pretty difficult to imagine any other way of picturing the world. Likewise there are plenty of people who honestly can't picture things in their mind at all. The fact that you are towards the middle of the spectrum does not mean the extremes don't exist.

Re: People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study

#30

Post by Tor3 » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:38 PM UTC

falsaberN1 wrote: post #6

throw1234651234 wrote: post #2

"Not everyone can see pictures in their minds when they close their eyes and summon thoughts - an ability many of us take for granted." I used to be into visualization as focus training. I can't "see" and change (move, change color) shapes in my mind at all. Artists I know claim to be able to do this. Obviously, Tesla (, Nikola) supposedly did this. For those who can do it - to what degree can you do it? Can you imag…

Characters, structures, vehicles, robots, pretty much anything I would like to draw or design. With color (or at least enough awareness to know a certain shape or area is in a specific color). I can also "listen" to music, unfortunately I'm really bad at creating new music so this skill is utterly useless for anything but remembering songs with just one listen or so. At night before falling asleep it's pretty much li…

In general my dreams have duller images than reality, but I had a dream many decades ago, after a half-dramatic winter day in the mountains - when sleeping in the tent that night I was dreaming about a summer day where I walked over the top of a hill, and in front of me was a valley with an old road, and fields of yellow flowers as far as I could see. What was special was that it was extremely sharp and vivid, much more so than reality. I could see every individual flower, from an apparent distance of a hundred meters or more. And at the same time I could see it all.

I still remember that dream vividly. Which is also unusual for me.