Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly • Hacker News Board

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#421

Post by ivanche » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 10:26 AM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #240

cryptonector wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least we don't have hyperinflation. That's even worse for the poor. Though to be sure I agree with you. We really need to fix this, but it's not going to happen. Right now we're paying an enormous -unprecedented?- political attention tax that is starving lots of important issues of oxygen.

Inflation doesn't affect the poor so long as wages keep up with inflation. If you don't have money, there's nothing to inflate.

Your comment makes me think you weren't even close to hyperinflation, ever.

Sincerely, a guy who survived 313 000 000 % inflation per month.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#422

Post by ilammy » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 10:27 AM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #363

xnyan wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint, my partner got very sick and I burned my savings then borrowed money from every source I could, including credit cards. I knew I was accepting awful terms, but they gave me money and that’s what I needed at that moment and it was the only way I could get it. I’m not asking for pity, I knew what I agreed to and I’ll pay it but sometimes high interest revolving credit (credit cards ) only choice you have.

As long as it's not a pay day loan everything is fine. If you need liquidity then credit cards are a perfectly sane option. What I never understood though is why you would use a credit card when you don't need to borrow money, which is how most people use them.

> why you would use a credit card when you don't need to borrow money

To build a credit score. When everybody lives in debt, it is expected for you to do the same.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#423

Post by rbrtl » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 10:33 AM UTC

taurath wrote: post #9

Having worked in fintech, they're essentially the gatekeepers of any new technology. Have a great idea for a value add in the payment processing gateway? They will not let you on any platform for 4 years while they launch a (poor) competitor at scale.

Sometimes the turn around is quicker, because rather than building their poor competitor they just buy one.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#424

Post by FeepingCreature » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 10:35 AM UTC

SenoraRaton wrote: post #269

gruez wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> credit transactions tend to be 20%+ higher ticket sizes than cash purchases. In a way, the credit card surcharge baked in is something of a volume purchasing incentive Funny you mention that, because that’s yet another case where it’s expensive to be poor. If you’re living paycheck to paycheck, barely making ends meet, you likely don’t have the cash flow to stock up on a sale. So rather than buying 18 months worth…

“The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boot…

Note: this is a market inefficiency. In an efficient well-operating system, if you can afford ten dollars a year for cheap boots, you should be able to get some agreement with your employee or a local bank to get a loan for $50 boots plus some interest that's still gonna be less than the cumulative $10 you pay for fresh boots every year. If you will reliably have the money for $10 boots and can prove/provide evidence that you will, you should be able to get the $50 boots now. The problem is twofold: first, proving you are reliable can be hard, and second, even given credit people still often make purchase decisions that don't last long, partially because they simply don't know what sort of purchases are prudent.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#425

Post by h91wka » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 10:41 AM UTC

petters wrote: post #328

Ninn wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it is true that we have more options, I do not agree that non credit card mobile payment options are a primary payment. These still lack a lot of usability improvement in comparison to the now widespread mobile credit cards supported by almost all banks too. So I still recognise visa and their support for Apple Pay helps maintain this power. Heres to hoping that Apple Pay (and Android) will open up directly to…

In Sweden, you can pay in most online stores (that I visit) with Klarna. They use direct back transfers.

Klarna is a bank that is connected to the Visa network. So, inherently, it is bound by the same rules as any other bank. So, in the context of this thread, they are not a competitor to Visa/MasterCard.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#426

Post by kidsil » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 10:42 AM UTC

The fastest way to do that is through phone-based payments.

Those protocols are substantially more open than Visa/MasterCard, and introducing a competition shouldn't require hardware changes for the POS.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#427

Post by bjelkeman-again » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 10:45 AM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #336

ivan_gammel wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is cash-based because of consumer behavior, not because costs are somehow lower. With corona, e-Commerce and services like SumUp more widespread Germany will inevitably catch up with other countries.

In Denmark, the majority of shops have little signs "Due to Covid-19, please pay by card or phone" or sometime "Due to Covid-19, cash is not accepted". On a recent trip to Germany, I didn't see a single such sign. Germany is changing gradually, perhaps due to the EU's limits on the fees Visa and MasterCard can change, but Covid-19 doesn't seem to have much effect.

In Stockholm, Sweden, many stores have stopped accepting cash altogether. Even before Covid.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#428

Post by hadrien01 » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 11:00 AM UTC

namdnay wrote: post #387

jobigoud wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know anyone personally that owns a "credit" card. Virtually nobody uses them here in France and I think in the rest of Europe, it's always debit card. Never had an issue with renting cars.

It is a common issue for French people renting cars outside of France - search on Google, there are hundreds of angry people who ended up with no car because agencies in other countries refuse debit cards (debit immediat)

Why would renting agencies refuse debit cards? You get your money, just like credit cards...

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#429

Post by tr352 » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 11:01 AM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #336

ivan_gammel wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is cash-based because of consumer behavior, not because costs are somehow lower. With corona, e-Commerce and services like SumUp more widespread Germany will inevitably catch up with other countries.

In Denmark, the majority of shops have little signs "Due to Covid-19, please pay by card or phone" or sometime "Due to Covid-19, cash is not accepted". On a recent trip to Germany, I didn't see a single such sign. Germany is changing gradually, perhaps due to the EU's limits on the fees Visa and MasterCard can change, but Covid-19 doesn't seem to have much effect.

I live in Germany at the moment and I do see this in many places. On the other hand there are also still shops where showing my card gets me a puzzling look as if I'm some kind of time traveller visiting from the future armed with my mysterious shiny plastic card.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#430

Post by AnssiH » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 11:03 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #220

hamandcheese wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fees for debit transactions are much lower, though.

I know this is the case when actually doing a PIN debit transaction (e.g. not Visa or Mastercard), but do you have a source on Visa/MC debit transactions costing less? Neither Stripe [0] nor Paypal [1] mention that. [0] https://stripe.com/pricing#pricing-details [1] https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/merchant-fees

> I know this is the case when actually doing a PIN debit transaction (e.g. not Visa or Mastercard), but do you have a source on Visa/MC debit transactions costing less?

PIN/contactless debit transactions go through VISA/MC here and they definitely cost less, see below.

However, not 100% sure about remote online/web transactions - most of those providers here are "contact for pricing", but e.g. BlueCommerce and Checkout.fi seem to have a single rate for card payments - though it could be the difference is just "averaged out" (like e.g. iZettle does for card-present EMV transactions: 1.95% for all cards).

Couldn't find an up-to-date English price list for Nets Finland, but here is a 2017 one in Finnish: https://ttlsystems.fi/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/SME_Hinnast...

Base rates: VISA Debit 0.41%, VISA Credit 0.91%, MC Debit 0.42%, MC Credit 0.92%. Additionally +0.04€ per transaction.

Remote transaction: +0.30%, foreign EU +0.10%, foreign non-EU +1.30%, corporate card +0.80%.

SumUp Finland: https://sumup.fi/maksupaate-hinta/

0.95% VISA/MC Debit, 2.75% credit cards.