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Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

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Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#341

Post by Symbiote »

jsumrall wrote: post #313
paranoidrobot wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with the exception of Amex, which operates outside the interchange system? Right, but try using Amex in Europe. Outside of major international hotel chains, or where you can do your purchase online through Paypal, you may as well not bother asking if they accept it.

It’s accepted in a lot of places here in NL. I have a Dutch amex. Aldi, Jumbo, Hema, all accept it. https://www.americanexpress.com/nl/voordelen/shopping/

That AmEx have a website listing where the card can be used shows it is far less-accepted than Visa or MasterCard.

I'm not surprised supermarkets accept it. Does your local pizza takeaway, kiosk or bar accept it?

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#342

Post by BiteCode_dev »

tappio wrote: post #326
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but concentrating that many things on your phone is not the solution. It causes different problems.

These are not concentrated to phone. -Direct bank payments use your bank id. You can have bank id stored in the phone, but you can also use a personal keychain authenticator -Klarna, Collector, etc use your social security number as the primary identification method -Mobile payments like Swish and mobile pay use your mobile number, so it is linked to your phone subscription, not your phone. Of course you still need t…

Yes but you need your phone on you to pay at the shop right ?

So no batterie, money ? No network, no money ? Phone stolen, no money ? Phone broken, no money ?

What if I don't want to have a spying hardware on me at all time ?

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#343

Post by 8ytecoder »

mandelbrotwurst wrote: post #316
ezconnect wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US you are a criminal if your business is dealing with large amount of cash everyday. That’s how credit card got the market share. Companies make the law so you will use their system. They dont profit if you use cash whywould they allow you to do that.

What are you referring to here? There are plenty of cash only businesses in my city and the owners aren't being thrown in jail for it.

Yup, there are some that even accept checks.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#344

Post by sdoering »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #327
ballenf wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is still way more cash-based and you see less consolidation of businesses into large chains than in the US. I'm not sure I buy "drowning in the same costs". I think there's something more akin to a prisoner's dilemma here.

Germany is cash-based because of consumer behavior, not because costs are somehow lower. With corona, e-Commerce and services like SumUp more widespread Germany will inevitably catch up with other countries.

@Symbiote:

Not sure were you were. I am from northern Germany, around Hamburg.

But every single store that does accept cards (not every little store can bear the fees, though) has theses signs.

So I would counter your n=1 anecdotal argument with an equally non representative n=1 argument. No one learns anything, except that some shops in Germany ask for the use of cash-alternatives, others don't.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#345

Post by francislavoie »

jb775 wrote: post #298

Could Stripe swoop in and make a play to become a third major CC option? I feel like they have the core infrastructure in place and are still nimble enough to make it happen if they wanted.

I feel like if they tried anything, MC/Visa would try to squeeze them until it becomes unviable. They would still need to support MC/Visa until they get enough market share to not totally hinder their existing business.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#346

Post by navaati »

jedmeyers wrote: post #271
majormajor wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes humans are selfish, sometimes they are generous. You don't like the term "systemic inequality" yet you're framing the problem in terms of our current system: very impersonal, only-the-numbers-and-ROI matters. If you phrased it as "most of us would choose to exploit the more desperate because they have very little alternatives instead of willingly helping out" you might trigger different instincts. Instincts…

> very impersonal, only-the-numbers-and-ROI matters. What would be a more personal approach when figuring out whether or not to loan the money to someone?

Deciding to lend to someone because you know them (they are "part of the community"), or they are a friend, or they are family. Of course it can be seen as more "humane" but it can also be seen as nepotism and/or a system excluding newcommers/strangers.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#347

Post by Symbiote »

vxNsr wrote: post #288
simias wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying by card is common, paying using a Credit Card not necessarily. I'm French and I'm semi-ashamed to admit that when at a store abroad the clerk asked me "debit or credit?" for payment I had to ask him to explain to me what this quaint exotic incantation meant. When I finally understood how that system worked I also finally understood this weird trope in American movies where a character has a half a dozen credit…

> Paying by card is common, paying using a Credit Card not necessarily. Care to expand on that?

Here are the statistics for Denmark.

"International Credit Card" are a small fraction of the total -- under 5%. The vast majority of transactions by number and value are by debit card.

(The national/international distinction is between Dankort, the Danish card payment system only used on most debit cards here, and the foreign companies like Visa and MasterCard.)

https://www.dst.dk/en/Statistik/emner/penge-og-kapitalmarked...

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#348

Post by Symbiote »

lillecarl wrote: post #131
PeterisP wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Card != CC. The point is that in EU there's less motivation to use credit cards than in USA because the situation is better for payment cards that are not credit cards. If you refer to Sweden, I believe that the split there is that something like 40% of the cards are credit cards, and the majority are not.

As a Swede, I thought the CC number would be lower. Most people my age never had a credit card. I do have a Visa DC and a MC CC for redundancy if my bank is down, most people I know doesn't even get why.

You are correct, credit card transactions are about 18% by number and 25% by value.

https://www.riksbank.se/en-gb/statistics/payments-notes-and-...

(Seriously, people, these kind of statistics are extremely easy to find. No need to make them up!)

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#349

Post by vanviegen »

stale2002 wrote: post #322
chongli wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who pay in cash are subsidizing the store’s costs to handle cash. Paying employees to count the cash (usually after closing), putting it in the safe, distributing the cash to cash registers, refilling when they run out of change, paying for the security service (Brinks etc) to deliver cash to/from the bank, insurance against robbery... Cash is not free for a store to handle. Stores pay transaction fees on cred…

This is an interesting argument, but it is not backed up by actual store behavior. Stores generally try to give extra charges for using credit cards, not the other way around. It seems like the fair thing to do, should be to allow a store to do whatever it wants, and make these credit card requirements illegal. So, it would be allowed for stored to charge extra for either cash or credit, whatever they choose, and the…

That seems to be what we have in The Netherlands.

It's common for online stores to charge a few percent extra for credit card payment (the base price usually applies for the most common form of online payment, iDEAL, which is cheaper, I guess because the banks cut out Visa/MC).

On the other end of the spectrum, there are some physical stores and restaurants (usually chains) that don't accept cash. They're allowed to do that, given that they state so very clearly upfront.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#350

Post by m12k »

The experience of receiving credit card payments for a SaaS subscription sucks badly, even if you disregard the inflated payment processing fee. Banks can allow the charge to happen the first five months, then on the sixth charge, randomly turn on a penny and reject the charge with a completely opaque do_not_honor code, which probably translates to 'our fraud detection algorithm felt extra paranoid today'. There's a whole industry of companies who help other companies "poke" their customers when their payments randomly fail, to prevent churn. This seems ripe for disruption. My dream tool for receiving payments:

- Isn't tied to a piece of plastic that expires

- Front loads the fraud prevention by requiring 2FA to make sure up front that the buyer actually wants to pay for this.

- Opt-in, per-transaction chargeback/escrow service (intended for shipment of physical goods) that you don't pay for if you don't activate. Transactions are clearly marked whether they include this during checkout. Otherwise transactions are final

- For subscriptions, allows you to specify the conditions under which future charges should also be accepted, and when they should be held and you get contacted to approve them instead.

- Basically anywhere the current system can fail/reverse a charge, the improved system would verify this up ahead, so the payment processor can be sure the buyer really wants to pay, and the merchant can be sure charges don't fail unless the buyer runs out of money in their account or actively cancels the subscription.

- Charge a much more reasonable processing fee, due to not needing to wade into disputes and fraud recovery all the time.

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