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A new theory about political polarization

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161–170 of 171 posts

Re: A new theory about political polarization

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He likes Trump because Trump is a 1980s Democrat. The Left treats people like him as The Other and is very loud and rude about it. See: http://archive.is/QRJ6m

You really dodge the main point of my post. Trump does not support any "left-wing" legislation, or any traditional 80s/90s neoliberal foreign policy. For someone to support Trump in 2020, and to support the concepts of universal healthcare and substantial police reform (and acknowledging systemic corruption in police), is completely mind boggling. I disagree with your worldview that the "left" dislikes Trump for some…

Trump has supported universal healthcare [0] for much longer than he's been against it, and he has quite the ongoing spat over systemic corruption in the nation's top law enforcement agency. [1] The problem is the system provides no path to electability for someone mixing and matching ingroup/outgroup ideals.

[0] https://www.ontheissues.org/2020/Donald_Trump_Health_Care.ht...

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/10/william-barr...

Re: A new theory about political polarization

#162
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only because in your example wanting != wanting, which is an unfortunate consequence of the language not having a good word to differentiate between the desire to possess something and the desire not to be rid of it. -(-A) == A, when A == A, is a tautology though.

Still not true, for instance if A is "proven". If A is not not proven, it doesn't mean it is proven; it can still be a hypothesis. And yet, proven == proven.

> If A is not not proven, it doesn't mean it is proven; it can still be a hypothesis.

Are you sure?

It seems to me if A is not not-proven, it is surely proven.

If A is still just a hypothesis, then it is not-proven, and isn't not not proven.

Re: A new theory about political polarization

#163
post #65
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Masses attract because they are attracted to eachother is not a theory of gravity, it's a restatement of the givens. Newton's theory of gravity had been dominating for a several centuries. It states literally this, masses attract because they are attracted. Despite of this it is a very valuable theory even now. > Theories explain observations, and predict what ought to be observed beyond the data used in their form…

Everyone who has ever lived knew that things fell to the ground; Newton's theory of gravity describes how. It makes testable predictions which were subsequently verified. That's why Newton gets his name on it and all those billions that came before him didn't. Knowing that things fall is not the same as knowing what causes them to fall. Linnean taxonomy makes the very powerful implicit prediction that similar looking…

Yes, but Newton's insight was that the ground has mass too, and that things fall because masses are attracted to each other.

Before that, people knew things fell down, but it hadn't occurred to them that this was caused by masses attracting each other, or that the ground is being attracted to the falling object.

Re: A new theory about political polarization

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, you countered her reasoning by committing multiple fallacies of your own. You strawmanned her ('That people denying this are parroting CCP propaganda and the CCP does all this horrible stuff.') and did an appeal to authority ('I then said many prominent people such as Tom Cotton and Mike Pompeo said this theory is credible'). You did so in a way that was enough to make her cry by your own admission.

Whenever I see a person use a fallacy I immediately use that fallacy against them. When she said the thing was a "conspiracy theory" that's essentially an appeal to authority that no one in authority believes that argument. When she compared me to a terrorist, that's an association fallacy, so I used that argument. Arguing against a fallacious reasoner is pointless, the only thing you can do is instruct them in prope…

> Whenever I see a person use a fallacy I immediately use that fallacy against them.

You should get checked out for a personality disorder.

The average person does not have training in engineering or law, and hasn't developed logical thought processes.

Arguing with somebody who doesn't use logic must feel pointless. What is the point of winning such an argument?

Re: A new theory about political polarization

#165
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In defense of your father on "Defund the Police", the last time I checked, the Black Lives Matter's website where the idea was first widely publicized had a release on it that I was hoping would add nuance to the phrase. It didn't, at all. It actually reinforced an abolition viewpoint. I went to donate to BLM that day from the Airbnb website's banner, and that release caused me to donate my money elsewhere. This line…

Don't forget the NYT Op-Ed titled, "Yes, We Mean Literally Abolish The Police"[0]. Which is just as ill-considered as it sounds, and includes certifiably insane arguments like, "What about rape? The current approach hasn’t ended it. In fact most rapists never see the inside of a courtroom. Two-thirds of people who experience sexual violence never report it to anyone. Those who file police reports are often dissatisfi…

I am not trying to pick a fight. The quote you provided, in and of itself, doesn’t seem certifiably insane. It seems like statements of fact that can be easily verified (or disproven). But assuming the statements are close to accurate, then it doesn’t seem “insane” to conclude that the current system has failed and should be replaced.

Can you help me understand what I am missing?

Re: A new theory about political polarization

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really dodge the main point of my post. Trump does not support any "left-wing" legislation, or any traditional 80s/90s neoliberal foreign policy. For someone to support Trump in 2020, and to support the concepts of universal healthcare and substantial police reform (and acknowledging systemic corruption in police), is completely mind boggling. I disagree with your worldview that the "left" dislikes Trump for some…

Trump has supported universal healthcare [0] for much longer than he's been against it, and he has quite the ongoing spat over systemic corruption in the nation's top law enforcement agency. [1] The problem is the system provides no path to electability for someone mixing and matching ingroup/outgroup ideals. [0] https://www.ontheissues.org/2020/Donald_Trump_Health_Care.ht... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2…

Is his spat because they are corrupt or because they investigate him for corruption? I suppose he would argue they investigate him for corruption because they are corrupt.

However, I have not seen Trump allege any cases of corruption other than investigations of Trump.

In that case, it is not so much corruption as it is political bias. But if that were the case, wouldn’t we see a disproportionate pursuit of other liberal objectives, like corporate malfeasance and voter disenfranchisement?

(Purely anecdotal) Most FBI agents I know are loudly conservative.

Basically, it seems we could A. take Trump at his word that he has not done anything wrong and that thousands of Americans have forsaken their oaths in order to pursue a nefarious plot against a leader for whom many of them voted Or B. let them do their job. If Trump has done nothing wrong, the facts will bear him out.

Re: A new theory about political polarization

#167

Political science seems to be going through a phase of questioning the rationality of voters. The two major theories of public choice -- Median Voter theory[1] (political parties take positions that appeal to the median voter) and Investment theory of Party Competition[2] (parties take positions most beneficial to their donors), both assume emotions (irrationality) of voters to be small. In the current political clim…

> The two major theories of public choice -- Median Voter theory[1] (political parties take positions that appeal to the median voter) and Investment theory of Party Competition[2] (parties take positions most beneficial to their donors), both assume emotions (irrationality) of voters to be small. In the current political climate -- while it seems that the explanatory power of emotions seems to have gone up, it isn't…

> The claim is largely that voters started to care more about politicians implementing their favorite policies than being the recipient of trickle-down graft.

For me graft is a more acceptable in good times. When things are booming it doesn't matter too much if a little extra is skimmed to one side.

When things seem dire, you want someone that will actually fix the problems you are worried about. So graft goes out of fashion.

Re: A new theory about political polarization

#168
post #65
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Masses attract because they are attracted to eachother is not a theory of gravity, it's a restatement of the givens. Newton's theory of gravity had been dominating for a several centuries. It states literally this, masses attract because they are attracted. Despite of this it is a very valuable theory even now. > Theories explain observations, and predict what ought to be observed beyond the data used in their form…

Everyone who has ever lived knew that things fell to the ground; Newton's theory of gravity describes how. It makes testable predictions which were subsequently verified. That's why Newton gets his name on it and all those billions that came before him didn't. Knowing that things fall is not the same as knowing what causes them to fall. Linnean taxonomy makes the very powerful implicit prediction that similar looking…

> Knowing that things fall is not the same as knowing what causes them to fall.

A lot of prominent contemporaries of Newton critisized Newton for a "magic" explanation of gravity. How Jupiter knows a mass of Sun, to be attracted to it with a proper force? We learn Newton's theory in a school when we are not developed mentally enough to question Newton's theory, so we just accept it as an authority gives it to us. Then we become accustomed to it and it feels ok to Jupiter to know mass of Sun, so we do not question it when becoming wiser. But it is a stupid thing really. Einstein's explanation with the bent space-time is much better.

I do not mean to mock Newton, to state that he was wrong and his critics were right. I'm trying to say that the lack of explanation is not a fatal thing for a theory. Critics of Newton were right, but Newton was right also.

The real achievement of Newton is to 'trivialization' of a problem, he picked mass as a leading factor and ignored all other possible factors, like brightness, size, visible size on the sky, albedo, inner structure, material, density, etc. Newton picked mass, wrote his law, and managed to prove that Kepler's law could be derived from Newton's law.

The discussed theory of political polarization do a very similar thing: it picks just one factor and describes facts with it, ignoring a lot of other factors. It is trivialization of a problem. I didn't thoroughly read the article, but it seems for me that authors propose a quantitative measures of a polarization and their model is able to predict them. They do worse than Newton because they didn't invent a whole new branch of math to prove that other models could be derived from their's. But does it makes their achievement nonexistent?

> the recognition that, for example, a dog and a wolf are the same type of thing was in and of itself non-obvious.

I'm not sure about this. The trouble is I was born at the era when the relation between a dog and a wolf was obvious. Maybe this make it impossible to me to believe that this couldn't be obvious. It seems for me that it is obvious that similar species are similar. Even if we do not state explicitly that they are related, we feel it already, so when stated it feels obvious. The non-obvious is when dissimilar species are related.

So I don't know was it obvious that a dog and a wolf are the same type, though I could make a testable prediction to check it: if Linnaean taxonometry was non-obvious, than there had to be an outrage of contemporaries. Only obvious things are accepted by everyone.

> What I think you are trying to describe is a model, which is a system of understanding information without necessarily explaining it.

Yes, almost. One small correction: it is not understanding, it is just a mnemonic, which makes it relatively easy to file information and to retrieve it. The resulting understanding is a 'fake' one, people feel it like they understand, but really there are no understanding behind this feeling.

Re: A new theory about political polarization

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget the NYT Op-Ed titled, "Yes, We Mean Literally Abolish The Police"[0]. Which is just as ill-considered as it sounds, and includes certifiably insane arguments like, "What about rape? The current approach hasn’t ended it. In fact most rapists never see the inside of a courtroom. Two-thirds of people who experience sexual violence never report it to anyone. Those who file police reports are often dissatisfi…

I am not trying to pick a fight. The quote you provided, in and of itself, doesn’t seem certifiably insane. It seems like statements of fact that can be easily verified (or disproven). But assuming the statements are close to accurate, then it doesn’t seem “insane” to conclude that the current system has failed and should be replaced. Can you help me understand what I am missing?

[deleted]

Re: A new theory about political polarization

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget the NYT Op-Ed titled, "Yes, We Mean Literally Abolish The Police"[0]. Which is just as ill-considered as it sounds, and includes certifiably insane arguments like, "What about rape? The current approach hasn’t ended it. In fact most rapists never see the inside of a courtroom. Two-thirds of people who experience sexual violence never report it to anyone. Those who file police reports are often dissatisfi…

I am not trying to pick a fight. The quote you provided, in and of itself, doesn’t seem certifiably insane. It seems like statements of fact that can be easily verified (or disproven). But assuming the statements are close to accurate, then it doesn’t seem “insane” to conclude that the current system has failed and should be replaced. Can you help me understand what I am missing?

My apologies, I implied my point rather vaguely instead of just making it outright.

Her statements are certainly true, however they don't support her argument at all--they just attack the status quo. If you read her arguments out of context, would you think that she was arguing for less funding for the system that is failing our women across the country? After all, you can't "redirect the billions that now go to police departments toward providing health care, housing, education and good jobs" while still funding law enforcement at anywhere near similar levels. Her argument amounts to 'Rape is bad. The system hasn't solved it, so we don't need the system.'

This is dangerous nonsense. If the system is ineffective, it's fine to replace it. But it should be replaced by a system which will give better results. Ms. Kaba provides no evidence that any alternative will give better results. We're expected to gamble the safety of millions of people around the country on a point of progressive dogma.

Ms. Kaba's position reminds me of a parable. In the olden days, as the story goes, a (not so wise) king grew concerned about the plight of his people. Plague was sweeping across the country, killing the poor in droves. The king asked for more information on the problem at hand, and an advisor brought him a table of figures. He reviewed the figures, and saw a correlation! The provinces where the most people were dying were also the provinces where there were the most physicians! The issue was clear; the solution simple. The physicians were clearly the cause of the plague. All he had to do to save his people was get rid of all of the damned physicians.

This 'defund the police' malarkey strikes me as the same kind of unthinking gut reaction.

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