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Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

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Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#251

Post by arcticbull »

gruez wrote: post #248
arcticbull wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's an oversimplification, because credit transactions tend to be 20%+ higher ticket sizes than cash purchases. In a way, the credit card surcharge baked in is something of a volume purchasing incentive. Further, the networks do explicitly permit cash discounts on card transactions, and always have. Merchants tend not to offer them, though.

> credit transactions tend to be 20%+ higher ticket sizes than cash purchases. In a way, the credit card surcharge baked in is something of a volume purchasing incentive Funny you mention that, because that’s yet another case where it’s expensive to be poor. If you’re living paycheck to paycheck, barely making ends meet, you likely don’t have the cash flow to stock up on a sale. So rather than buying 18 months worth…

I don't disagree that this is regressive and unfortunate, although the bigger issue in my mind (and I get we can have two problems and solve both at once) is free parking. The poor tend to use transit but the cost of parking is baked into each purchase thereby subsidizing the wealthy, too. [1]

[1] https://www.vox.com/2014/6/27/5849280/why-free-parking-is-ba...

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#252

Post by kube-system »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #159
alt_f4 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not though. No one is forcing you or anyone else to sign up for credit cards - it's a choice, unlike taxation.

> " No one is forcing you or anyone else to sign up for credit cards - it's a choice, unlike taxation. " Tell that to the increasing number of shops that no longer accept cash.

Is this really a thing outside of SF? I haven't seen any cashless stores in my city yet. In fact, 3 of my favorite restaurants are still cash-only.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#253

Post by briandear »

rtpg wrote: post #189
PeterisP wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not seeing a "mainstream-ization of the crypto currencies". A few years ago, quite a few local businesses were experimenting with accepting cryptocurrency payments, and I could buy all kinds of stuff and services using bitcoin. I could order a pizza with bitcoin, I could buy electronics at a major retailer, I could buy plane tickets, I could pay for lunch in a local cafe. That's not the case any more, by now all…

Crpyto isn't mainstreaming but you are having a mainstream-ization of non-CC digital payments. Venmo is the thing in the US, but China has Alipay/Wepay, SE asia has various digital payment apps, Japan has had a huge "cashless" push in the past 12 months.... If I were running a retail shop in the US I definitely would accept payment by Venmo if I could.

Apple Pay is the thing. And it makes peer to peer money moving simple while not violating privacy like Venmo. You can use Apple Cash or a payment card. It’s all pretty easy — and private. Venmo is a privacy nightmare. You can use Apple Pay without even having a debit or credit card.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#254

Post by clairity »

chongli wrote: post #185
shkkmo wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't like to carry cash around, and I hate it that I have to pay a surcharge when paying by card. So you think your use of a credit card should be subsidized by people who pay in cash?

People who pay in cash are subsidizing the store’s costs to handle cash. Paying employees to count the cash (usually after closing), putting it in the safe, distributing the cash to cash registers, refilling when they run out of change, paying for the security service (Brinks etc) to deliver cash to/from the bank, insurance against robbery... Cash is not free for a store to handle. Stores pay transaction fees on cred…

> "Cash is not free for a store to handle."

that's like saying opening the doors everyday to customers is not free. it's true, but misses the point. handling cash, like paying for utilities, is a fundamental cost of doing business, and so it should be, because the right to anonymity and privacy is woven into cash. not so much with electronic transactions, which are optional, alternative costs.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#255

Post by gruez »

arcticbull wrote: post #240
cryptonector wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least we don't have hyperinflation. That's even worse for the poor. Though to be sure I agree with you. We really need to fix this, but it's not going to happen. Right now we're paying an enormous -unprecedented?- political attention tax that is starving lots of important issues of oxygen.

Inflation doesn't affect the poor so long as wages keep up with inflation. If you don't have money, there's nothing to inflate.

> Inflation doesn't affect the poor so long as wages keep up with inflation

Does it? In an inflationary environment the status quo is that your wages shrink. I guess it’s better than holding cash because you can renegotiate your wages back, but I don’t think rich people have most of their assets as cash.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#256

Post by majormajor »

esyir wrote: post #241
chii wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and that's why this is called systemic inequality - the inequality is built into the rules of the system.

I'll go one step further. This inequality is built into how humans work. Most of us would not extend credit to somebody with low odds of returning it, so why do should we expect companies and organizations to behave differently? I feel like wrapping this up as in the pretty words "systemic inequality" is framing it as some constructed oppressive structure, which I'm loathe to do.

Sometimes humans are selfish, sometimes they are generous.

You don't like the term "systemic inequality" yet you're framing the problem in terms of our current system: very impersonal, only-the-numbers-and-ROI matters.

If you phrased it as "most of us would choose to exploit the more desperate because they have very little alternatives instead of willingly helping out" you might trigger different instincts. Instincts that would favor restricting interest rates and favoring a stronger social safety net.

There are more generous and forgiving systems that have existed successfully elsewhere in human history, so they're not incompatible with human nature, so yes, I think it's fair to characterize the American system as iniquitous.

Why should someone else's desparation and need be solely viewed through the lens of economic opportunity for someone else?

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#257

Post by arcticbull »

gruez wrote: post #255
arcticbull wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inflation doesn't affect the poor so long as wages keep up with inflation. If you don't have money, there's nothing to inflate.

> Inflation doesn't affect the poor so long as wages keep up with inflation Does it? In an inflationary environment the status quo is that your wages shrink. I guess it’s better than holding cash because you can renegotiate your wages back, but I don’t think rich people have most of their assets as cash.

> In an inflationary environment the status quo is that your wages shrink.

The US is a classical inflationary environment and wages have kept pace with inflation forever.

Indeed, inflation only, and intentionally, punishes those who hoard cash.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#258

Post by kube-system »

e9 wrote: post #106
alt_f4 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not though. No one is forcing you or anyone else to sign up for credit cards - it's a choice, unlike taxation.

you can't rent a car without credit card, they won't accept debit card or even debit VISA/MASTERCARD, it has to be full on credit card

Most of the large car rental companies in the US will let you rent with a deposit on a debit card.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#259

Post by _8j50 »

milkytron wrote: post #218
_8j50 wrote: post #21

Would be happy to buy a usable cryptocoin card. I was thinking about interest-free crypto-loans where the debtor would speculate on the value of the currency at the time it will paid off (like options trading). If you loan 100btc you would loan with the speculation that for example it would be 10% more valuable in a year. If in a year your speculation is correct, you break even, if the price is 10% lower, the debtee…

That seems extremely risky.

You will still have credit checks and collaterals as usual. The person taking on the loan absorbs all risk in exchange for not having a interest accumulate. Think of it this way, with APR loan, how much you pay at the end depends on how the interrst rate is adjusted and how long it takes you to pay off. With my approach you might end up owing a lot of money but it will never depend on how fast you can pay it off. It will not canibalize your cash flow like an interest debt. The debtor gets free loss insurance and debtee gets freedom from interest and the total cost depends on the currency value at the time of first payment. Also,the total cost will not be a surprise to anyone, the person taking on the loan knows how much they have to pay back. Ideally if you don't have credit, you will need to place in escrow some amount of the base loan and take on more risk in terms of paying at a higher valuation should the currency value be higher at the time of payment(which all goes away with collateral or good credit score)

Anyway, I was just thinking out loud my idea. I hate interest and mandatory insurance alike.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#260

Post by briandear »

sharemywin wrote: post #12
xfour wrote: post #3

While I agree with the sentiment, things have certainly opened up lately quite a bit with the mainstream-ization of the crypto currencies. One could conceivably avoid Visa / MC in a way that just wouldn't have been possible before. Visa / MC remind me a bit of Ticketmaster in that they've got parties on both sides defending them because of kickbacks. You charge the merchant the "interchange fee" plus some amount and…

Pretty much the digital economy. As long as the consumer only get screwed a little per transaction, and consumers don't see the charge directly.

The consumer isn’t getting screwed. There is purchase protection, fraud protection as well as extreme convenience. If we are worried about consumer prices, let’s talk about taxes and government malfeasance with the spending of those taxes. Some countries have a 20% VAT. Surely they could survive on 18%? Or even 10%? Less than a percent (in Europe) for interchange or less than 3% (in the US) is minor compared to the 9-20% one directly pays in sales taxes.
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