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Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

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Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#241

Post by esyir »

chii wrote: post #219
milkytron wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that the fault of the credit system though? Those who have access to more credit (or have better credit) are able to take advantage of these offers.

and that's why this is called systemic inequality - the inequality is built into the rules of the system.

I'll go one step further. This inequality is built into how humans work.

Most of us would not extend credit to somebody with low odds of returning it, so why do should we expect companies and organizations to behave differently? I feel like wrapping this up as in the pretty words "systemic inequality" is framing it as some constructed oppressive structure, which I'm loathe to do.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#242

Post by arcticbull »

wtn wrote: post #169
acomjean wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Get 2% if you use cash instead of VISA" Some gas stations where I live have a "credit" price and a lower "cash" price.

That's because US federal law no longer allows credit card companies to forbid cash discounts. The above poster was incorrect.

(1) Cash discounts were always permitted ("2% off for paying with cash")

(2) Credit surcharges and minimums used to be forbidden, but they are not anymore ("2% surcharge for paying with credit, minimum $10 for card payments")

(3) It wasn't federal law, it was the merchant agreements that precluded credit card minimums and surcharges as a condition of signing up to accept credit card payments from each of the major issuers.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#243

Post by ceejayoz »

apta wrote: post #143
sdenton4 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not optional, though. I still have to pay the higher transaction costs even without a credit card, because the credit card companies require that vendors have the same prices for card or cash, resulting in higher prices for everyone.

I've seen stores (e.g. electronic stores) offer reduced prices when paying in cash vs. credit card. Is this law only in the US?

Reduced prices for cash used to be against the Visa/MC merchant terms. They lost a lawsuit over it, but it's fairly ingrained by now.

You'll see cash discounts at some gas stations, and the occasional small coffee shop or takeout place will have a $10 minimum, but otherwise it's gonna be the same price most places.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#244

Post by scarlac »

It will probably happen, but will take a while. My bet is that this is what Apple is working on. They will launch a version of Apple Card that is free of MasterCard.

So far it's been a really long-haul play where Apple has spent a lot of time establishing deals with banks manually, in order to get a tiny fee, which they can due to the increased security of their system. This hard work is necessary in order to create a payment network that can work for everyone.

Eventually, Apple will be in a position to launch their own network, while increasing fees for themselves and lowering fees for merchants.

As someone who's been a merchant I'm very happy to see this happening, although it's like watching a tree grow (paint drying would be exciting in comparison). It's likely Google will follow suit, and depending on Apple's choice of implementation, we could hope that it will be backed by a stable cryptocurrency - but that's just a shot in the dark.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#245

Post by erostrate »

seibelj wrote: post #29

Unpopular opinion here (from my experience), but crypto / blockchain is ever so slowly and deliberately destroying the moat around payments and the artificial barriers constructed. Probably 5 more years for some very serious mainstream business movements into it, and 10 more for non-technical consumers, but I believe with the rise of stablecoins (USDC) and Ethereum scaling via proof of stake (ETH2) their days are num…

And one year after that we will get self driving cars. And the next one will definitely be the year of Linux on the desktop :)

Sure, it could happen somewhere down the line but saying that blockchain is "destroying the moat" today is a big stretch. Blockchain barely just started to realize that the moat is actually much larger than previously thought. And that parts of the moat exist for a reason. It's barely starting to understand the moat, still far from attacking it, let alone destroying it.

Hopefully it will but I'm not holding my breath nor my bitcoins.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#246

Post by incompatible »

mcbain wrote: post #223
incompatible wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likewise in Australia. The only difficulty I've found using a debit card in recent years is when renting a car: with a debit card, they generally want to put a "hold" on the account for a few hundred dollars. I can't get a credit card anyway since my income isn't high enough, and I wouldn't want one because they charge annual fees in Australia. Banks in Australia run their own payments system, so it's possible to pay…

There are a number of credit cards in Australia that do not charge annual fees. Many require being linked to an active transaction account, but not all. They generally don't have any kind of linked reward points structure, but that's not a huge loss as most of those got nerfed after the ACCC changes a while back (see elsewhere in these comments).

I see there are some of these around these days, perhaps it wasn't so common last time I was looking which was at least 5 years ago. But at this point, there doesn't seem to be much benefit in having a credit card. I'd also be unlikely to qualify for one, either due to not having a stable income of $20k plus per year, or because I'm not a permanent visa holder in Australia, despite living here for over a decade.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#247

Post by paranoidrobot »

reaperducer wrote: post #195
paranoidrobot wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with the exception of Amex, which operates outside the interchange system? Right, but try using Amex in Europe. Outside of major international hotel chains, or where you can do your purchase online through Paypal, you may as well not bother asking if they accept it.

Outside of major international hotel chains, or where you can do your purchase online through Paypal, you may as well not bother asking if they accept it. It's very interesting to hear that. When I first started traveling to Europe, having an American Express card (or even better, AmEx travelers checks) was the best way for an American to pay for things. It's even written into some classic books and movies. My how th…

> It's even written into some classic books and movies.

That was one of the deciding factors when I was planning on getting a second credit card (so I'd have a backup while travelling).

I knew here in Australia they are not widely accepted, with only major retailers accepting it typically, but I thought that this was just Australia being backwards.

After spending the first two or three weeks trying to pay for things with it, I gave up except on checking into a new hotel.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#248

Post by gruez »

arcticbull wrote: post #233
gruez wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In the US, interchange fees are extremely inflated to allow banks to recuperate the rewards they give out to distinguish their card offerings from one another. The 2% cashback has to come from somewhere. And that's a bad thing, because it's essentially the poor subsidizing the rich. People who aren't able to get credit cards (or the "good" cash back credit cards) tend to be worse off financially than people who do.

I think that's an oversimplification, because credit transactions tend to be 20%+ higher ticket sizes than cash purchases. In a way, the credit card surcharge baked in is something of a volume purchasing incentive. Further, the networks do explicitly permit cash discounts on card transactions, and always have. Merchants tend not to offer them, though.

> credit transactions tend to be 20%+ higher ticket sizes than cash purchases. In a way, the credit card surcharge baked in is something of a volume purchasing incentive

Funny you mention that, because that’s yet another case where it’s expensive to be poor. If you’re living paycheck to paycheck, barely making ends meet, you likely don’t have the cash flow to stock up on a sale. So rather than buying 18 months worth of TP when there’s a sale + coupon on the 64 pack, you are buying the 4 pack at regular price that costs twice as much per unit.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#249

Post by samatman »

arcticbull wrote: post #240
cryptonector wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least we don't have hyperinflation. That's even worse for the poor. Though to be sure I agree with you. We really need to fix this, but it's not going to happen. Right now we're paying an enormous -unprecedented?- political attention tax that is starving lots of important issues of oxygen.

Inflation doesn't affect the poor so long as wages keep up with inflation. If you don't have money, there's nothing to inflate.

They did say hyperinflation.

Characteristic of hyperinflation, is that nothing keeps up with it. Forget wages keeping up: your very paycheck is worth less at the end of two weeks than it was when you received it.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#250

Post by erostrate »

How come we haven't had big privacy scandals from Visa/ Mastercard?

Big companies, a rent-like business, no pressure to do things well, own lots of very sensitive personal data, clients giving the data away without realizing it, little regulatory oversight on the data front, etc.

I would expect them to sell or leak poorly anonymised personal data, leading to huge privacy issues.

Why hasn't this happened?

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