Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple • Hacker News Board

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#251

Post by kelnos » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 1:57 AM UTC

sequoia wrote: post #192

mdavidn wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cope with this confusion by avoiding third-party login whenever possible. Why volunteer additional information about myself to Google or Facebook?

Because you can frequently avoid account creation, setting a new password etc if you click “sign in with google.” It’s a tradeoff but if you don’t see any value in it you maybe haven’t used it- it’s convenient.

I think that's the entire point of the parent's (and my as well) position: the so-called convenience of not having to type a few more things to set up an account is not worth giving more data and control to FB/Google/whomever.

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#252

Post by tbeseda » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:03 AM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #251

sequoia wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you can frequently avoid account creation, setting a new password etc if you click “sign in with google.” It’s a tradeoff but if you don’t see any value in it you maybe haven’t used it- it’s convenient.

I think that's the entire point of the parent's (and my as well) position: the so-called convenience of not having to type a few more things to set up an account is not worth giving more data and control to FB/Google/whomever.

They're likely just answering the question you posed... An explanation for _why_

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#253

Post by AnonC » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:06 AM UTC

The only authentic point I saw in this entire article was the one about the lack of documentation by Apple in implementing this across different platforms.

Everything else applies to logging in with Facebook (or can be dealt with in other ways), which the company has supported for years and is now forced to remove it because of Apple’s restrictions. Without Sign In with Apple, I doubt if they would’ve chosen to remove the Facebook login anytime soon, thus putting more users into privacy hell holes despite making statements like this:

“At AnyList, we respect your privacy.

...

When you provide us with your email address, it is never sold, shared, or used to invade your privacy.”

If the documentation had been good enough, I’m sure they would’ve implemented it and also retained Facebook login for a longer time. Seeing Facebook login being removed gives me some comfort and a sense of “all’s well that ends well”.

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#254

Post by rtpg » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:09 AM UTC

fladrif wrote: post #202

sequoia wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you can frequently avoid account creation, setting a new password etc if you click “sign in with google.” It’s a tradeoff but if you don’t see any value in it you maybe haven’t used it- it’s convenient.

With a password manager though, I avoid having tradeoffs in the first place. I get some amount of anonymity by separating my accounts, and it's trivial to login to sites with the same amount of clicks as with third party sso.

Password manager doesn't stop you from having to fill in a bunch of stuff. Like yeah, it's only a couple minutes, but if it's for an app you'll use a handful of times in your life, just hitting that G will be much nicer.

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#255

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:20 AM UTC

[deleted]

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#256

Post by crooked-v » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:21 AM UTC

rattray wrote: post #237

AnonC wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obfuscation of the email address is an explicit choice by the user when using Sign in with Apple. It’s not something forced by the service. If users are choosing to do that, it says something about the lack of trust the users have with whatever they’re signing up for.

There's two kinds of "obfuscation" at play with Sign In With Apple. One is true obfuscation - "hide my email". That would be a poor choice for use with any app you hope to have an ongoing relationship with, I'd think. The other is just the use of iCloud email addresses, detailed in the post, which seemed like a very good and concerning point. It's also much less likely to be a problem with FB or Google login.

Your primary iCloud email address is meant to just be your main email address, including non-Apple email addresses.

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#257

Post by rswail » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:21 AM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #194

crazygringo wrote: post #157

As they point out at the very bottom, all their arguments apply to all third-party sign-ons, so they're removing Facebook as well. So there's nothing specifically against Apple, despite the title seeming to imply it -- just that they're taking the move right now because of Apple's new policy coming into effect. I've got to say, I really wish there were a way to know whether I already used Facebook, Google, or Apple t…

"all their arguments apply to all third-party sign-ons" No they don't. Other sign-on options don't obfuscate the email address. They are likely removing FB login as otherwise their next app update will be rejected by Apple for supporting third party login but not Apple login.

They don't obfuscate the email address you use with them.

I don't share my "real" email address with Facebook.

My Google account isn't my main account, it's a throwaway I use for things that require email to sign up.

This is a general problem for all OAuth IdPs.

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#258

Post by dahfizz » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:21 AM UTC

no_wizard wrote: post #236

dahfizz wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely not. Compare the native ios documentation[1] with their "other platforms" documentation[2]. Their native documentation has code snippets, helpful links, and explains in depth what is happening. The "other platforms" documentation is "make this request, store some data, follow redirects". No code, no helpful links on how you might accomplish these things, nothing. You get the bare minimum. I'm not saying it…

Not surprised the documentation that highlights the Apple Platform is better, however, give. That said, it’s a REST API you query and you get a well defined payload: > A successful response contains the following parameters: code A single-use authorization code that is valid for five minutes. id_token A JSON web token containing the user’s identity information. state The state contained in the Authorize URL. user A J…

To repeat myself, I know that this is more than possible to implement. But you're also hiding a lot of complexity about redirecting from your app to a browser, managing state, custom url schemes, etc. If you want to turn your curl request into an actual app, there's some nontrivial code you have to write and test yourself. And this code is important - if a user can't sign in, your entire app is broken.

And to what benefit? This is the point of the article. Sign in for apple is extra work and extra complexity for no benefit (to the developer, at least). It's an immature project and the fact that Apple is putting in the bare minimum effort into the docs does not encourage me to adopt this feature.

Google, in comparison, has a working sample project and step by step guide for implementing Google sign in on iOS[1]. Google sign in is just as much a "curl request" as apple sign in, but they put in the effort to give a high quality, well integrated, and native example.

Apple can't be bothered, which discourages people like OP from adopting the feature.

[1] https://developers.google.com/identity/sign-in/ios/start

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#259

Post by ascotan » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:22 AM UTC

Love it. I hate it when I'm presented with a "sign in with Google". I feel pressured to have a Gmail account or a Facebook account (which I honestly don't want).

I get the fact that login is broken across the web and there is no centralized login authority, but sorry Google/Facebook are not it imho.

We can/should look at other ways to authenticate, but thats a larger discussion.

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#260

Post by Razengan » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:22 AM UTC

I had never heard of AnyList and this makes sure I will never use them.

Before Sign in with Apple, I uninstalled most apps that required me to sign up before I could even try them at all. Now I specifically look for apps that support it.

I don't want to give my email to 100 different companies (I get spam on the aliases that I did hand out long ago to apps that aren't even around anymore).

Though, all these hitherto obscure companies jumping into the spotlight just by setting themselves up as the underdog against the Apple world tree gives me an idea of what to do when I want a quick boost in popularity.. :)