Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly • Hacker News Board

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#171

Post by kyrra » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 1:53 AM UTC

random3 wrote: post #56

kyrra wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Googler, opinions are my own) It really depends on the types of products and what the consumer experience is like. Google is an interesting beast in that we provide services across a wide variety of billing models. You have immediate product purchases, where knowing that the transactions is complete immediately can be important (ex: Play store games, or movies). Credit cards are great for that instant guarantee. For…

But there's Same Day ACH, right? Also the new RTP Network ( https://www.theclearinghouse.org/payment-systems/rtp ) seems to get traction.

RTP is definitely a step in the right direction. It's coverage is s around 50%, which is good. I'm hoping FedNOW pushes is the rest of the way.

The clearing house is also owned by many of the large banks in the US. While this seems nice, I'm sure there's some paranoia from non owners about joining a network owned by their competition.

The UK went and interesting path of forcing all banks to implement faster payments, so it got wide coverage.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#172

Post by paranoidrobot » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 1:57 AM UTC

Rebelgecko wrote: post #147

shkkmo wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't like to carry cash around, and I hate it that I have to pay a surcharge when paying by card. So you think your use of a credit card should be subsidized by people who pay in cash?

I wonder how much more expensive credit cards actually are? Cash costs money/time to handle and deposit, it's easily stolen, and easy to commit fraud with (like the classic move where a drive thru employee pockets the cash from a sale without ringing it up)

One issue I know smaller retailers sometimes have is that it can take a long time to get cleared funds into their account.

One small cafe near a place I used to work said it usually took 30-60 days for funds to clear into their account after a card transaction. That, for them, was a major problem as it meant that they couldn't then pay their suppliers in a timely manner when cashflow was highly variable.

Then again, a bakery I visited that was in a small town said they'd stopped taking cash, as they got robbed some huge number of times.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#173

Post by jpkoning » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 1:58 AM UTC

ajb wrote: post #28

Coincidentally I just read a post from a business that's finding ordinary bank transfers getting more traction from customers than they expected: https://www.revk.uk/2020/06/beyond-credit-cards-is-this-way-...

This is good news on the competition front.

The traditional problem with bank-to-bank transfers in a retail, or point-of-sale, setting has been speed. Cheque was about the fastest that could be mustered.

But with developments like UK Faster Payments (which is mentioned in your link) bank-to-bank transfers are getting faster, in some cases instant. And so usability at the point-of-sale is now on par with cards.

In Holland, iDEAL is used a lot for retail purchases. It's an instant bank-to-bank payment option that competes with the card networks.

The equivalent in Sweden is Swish. It too is moving into point-of-sale payments.

As for the US, I suspect that at some point Zelle will pivot into retail point-of-sale payments. At which point the card networks will have a big competitor.

All of this is good news if you are worried about the card oligopolies!

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#174

Post by techsupporter » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 1:58 AM UTC

wil421 wrote: post #153

simias wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying by card is common, paying using a Credit Card not necessarily. I'm French and I'm semi-ashamed to admit that when at a store abroad the clerk asked me "debit or credit?" for payment I had to ask him to explain to me what this quaint exotic incantation meant. When I finally understood how that system worked I also finally understood this weird trope in American movies where a character has a half a dozen credit…

Debit card (bank card) transactions in the US require a PIN. Credit cards require a signature but most gas stations require a zip code. It would be nice if the US had PINs like Europe does for credit cards. I make around $1500-$2000 a year in cash back from my credit cards and $195 in fees. 6% back for groceries, 3% for gas, 3% on online shopping, and 3% for restaurants. All my household utilities and bills are run t…

> It would be nice if the US had PINs like Europe does for credit cards.

Some cards do offer this feature, all issued by credit unions as I recall. Spokane Teachers Credit Union, First Technology Federal Credit Union, and State Department Federal Credit Union are the three I know off the top of my head. Target's MasterCard version of its REDcard also has a PIN but you cannot apply for that card directly.

(I have cards from each of them, except SDFCU, and have considered getting that one simply because it would be a chip-and-PIN Visa card and I don't have that particular combination.)

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#175

Post by incompatible » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:00 AM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #92

arachnid92 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to present a counterpoint to your claim that in the EU, CCs matter less: there are countries in the EU like Sweden where cash is virtually non-existent. Basically everything is card-based here, I've even seen panhandlers who accept electronic payments in Stockholm.

Card != CC. The point is that in EU there's less motivation to use credit cards than in USA because the situation is better for payment cards that are not credit cards. If you refer to Sweden, I believe that the split there is that something like 40% of the cards are credit cards, and the majority are not.

Likewise in Australia. The only difficulty I've found using a debit card in recent years is when renting a car: with a debit card, they generally want to put a "hold" on the account for a few hundred dollars.

I can't get a credit card anyway since my income isn't high enough, and I wouldn't want one because they charge annual fees in Australia.

Banks in Australia run their own payments system, so it's possible to pay by card without going through Visa / Mastercard. Some cards issued by banks don't even have the Visa / Mastercard affiliation, but I think the Visa / Mastercard debit feature is needed it you want to make card-not-present transactions online.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#176

Post by TylerE » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:01 AM UTC

notyourwork wrote: post #94

pradn wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CC rewards seem like a indirect regressive tax. Wealthier consumers who can afford to pay on time and have better credit ratings are subsidized by poor consumers who actually use the "credit" part of "credit card".

If people didn't spend money they don't have the problem you describe dissolves. No one has to use credit cards and being financially literate is an individual responsibility.

The actually financially literate know how much more buyer protection you get with a CC than with any other form of payment.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#177

Post by kneel » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:01 AM UTC

notyourwork wrote: post #94

pradn wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CC rewards seem like a indirect regressive tax. Wealthier consumers who can afford to pay on time and have better credit ratings are subsidized by poor consumers who actually use the "credit" part of "credit card".

If people didn't spend money they don't have the problem you describe dissolves. No one has to use credit cards and being financially literate is an individual responsibility.

If companies weren't allowed to offer predatory lending towards financially illiterate the problem you describe dissolves, this is actually much easier to implement than individual responsibility.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#178

Post by PascLeRasc » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:02 AM UTC

cpsempek wrote: post #77

pradn wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CC rewards seem like a indirect regressive tax. Wealthier consumers who can afford to pay on time and have better credit ratings are subsidized by poor consumers who actually use the "credit" part of "credit card".

I'm ignorant to CC companies' financials. But I would have thought their revenues are driven by transaction fees, which end up ultimately getting passed down to the buyer through higher prices. Would be interested to learn more though about CC economics. It would indeed be sad if CC rewards operated like a regressive tax, as you say.

It can get way worse than revenues being driven by interchange fees. Banks like Wells Fargo and Capital One operate like a classy pay-day loan company, targeting sub-prime customers who are more likely to not pay on time. I'd recommend reading this for more info: https://newrepublic.com/article/155212/worked-capital-one-fi...

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#179

Post by andrewmutz » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:09 AM UTC

cynix wrote: post #163

shkkmo wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't like to carry cash around, and I hate it that I have to pay a surcharge when paying by card. So you think your use of a credit card should be subsidized by people who pay in cash?

> So you think your use of a credit card should be subsidized by people who pay in cash? I don't think it should be so clear cut like that. The credit card processing fees charged by the processor is a cost of doing business and should just be factored into the pricing without being explicitly passed on to a subset of customers. For example, a shopping centre or convenience store may have toilets that only a subset o…

If the toilets cost 3% of revenue, then yes they should charge separately for using the toilets.

Re: Forget Google, time to end the Visa-MasterCard duopoly

#180

Post by RichardHeart » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:09 AM UTC

Near the entire economy paying a % rent to these couple companies is unfair. Cryptocurrency can remove these middlemen, however, they're missing some important features. 1. Dispute resolution. 2. Recurring billing. When you see how expensive it is to do #1, credit cards start to look like a wonderful deal.

Someone is going to say: Micropayments (it's never worked.) Pre-auth'd lower amounts retailers can pull from you (might work.) Crypto-escrow (Any place that used to do it has gone out of business I beleive.) Too volatile: (Peer to Peer stable coins, or "trusted" stable coins protected by laws instead of code address this.)

Thus, peer to peer open source value transfer is the minimum amount of middlemen possible, but is crippled by regulatory overhead at the end points, giving the incumbents entrenched advantage. Caveat: I founded a cryptocurrency.