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Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

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Re: Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

#741

Post by Natanael_L »

basch wrote: post #731
dmoy wrote: post #725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> True free speech is valued because it fosters debate, and allows bad speech to be rebutted by more speech Sure, but in practice this is what true free speech on reddit for a large sub looks like before moderation * 3 knee jerk replies * 10 pieces of spam asking you to buy their bit/altcoin or click on their affiliate links * 5 people who are hurling vile insults at you for whatever reason * 8 more people who are hu…

It would be interesting to see an implementation that lets you view but not interact with removed content. click the spam tag to see all the spam, grayed out. in some cases it might be helpful to know what not to say, or that something has already been said and removed. /r/askhistorians would probably be a place where marking something as removed but visible would not be as at risk of propagating urban legend or bad…

On reddit you can do that natively for a whole thread by locking, but for individual comment chains you can only do it with mod bots.

Re: Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

#742

Post by CogentHedgehog »

dmoy wrote: post #725
basch wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The iron fist is a double edged sword in some senses. Although reddit acted as a free speech haven for a long time, it was only overall, and not ever in major specific communities. True free speech is valued because it fosters debate, and allows bad speech to be rebutted by more speech. A marketplace of ideas, and maybe more importantly, the counterspeech doctrine, are incredibly important principals in justifying th…

> True free speech is valued because it fosters debate, and allows bad speech to be rebutted by more speech Sure, but in practice this is what true free speech on reddit for a large sub looks like before moderation * 3 knee jerk replies * 10 pieces of spam asking you to buy their bit/altcoin or click on their affiliate links * 5 people who are hurling vile insults at you for whatever reason * 8 more people who are hu…

As moderator of a top-100 subreddit: this is SO incredibly accurate. You must be another moderator of one of the big subreddits. 90% of my work is nuking flamewars, spammers, trolls, and low-effort meme replies.

Without automation and human moderators to clean up, it's basically impossible to have a free exchange of ideas or any good discussion. Free speech disappears into the noise.

The idea of free speech is great and was a big step forward in an era where government oppression was a primary fear. But in the Internet Age, I think Civil Discourse is a better goal to aim for.

Re: Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

#743

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

Good. I wouldn't want these communities on my website either. And it's not about censorship, it's about not wanting to give shitty hateful trolls a platform and let them run wild on your site ruining it for everyone who chooses to remain civil.

Re: Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

#744

Post by dmoy »

Natanael_L wrote: post #741
basch wrote: post #731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be interesting to see an implementation that lets you view but not interact with removed content. click the spam tag to see all the spam, grayed out. in some cases it might be helpful to know what not to say, or that something has already been said and removed. /r/askhistorians would probably be a place where marking something as removed but visible would not be as at risk of propagating urban legend or bad…

On reddit you can do that natively for a whole thread by locking, but for individual comment chains you can only do it with mod bots.

You can individually lock comments now (new as of a year ago?), but in practice it is incredibly painful/time consuming to do so for a whole subthread of comments. Eventual consistency also sucks there. Easier to nuke the whole thread and remove it from view.

Re: Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

#745

Post by mancerayder »

newacct583 wrote: post #674
ebg13 wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Orwell coined the term "doublethink" to describe two contradictory concepts held simultaneously. Something like this: > >Consequences may include social sanctions and violent reactions. > >exercise your right to free speech (which is your right) This is a false assessment. The fundamental government-blind right to speech does not include a right to group inclusion. There's nothing contradictory about you having the…

To wit: the Freedom of Association enshrined in the first amendment includes the right to tell someone else to fuck right off.

Telling someone to fuck off is fine. If we're talking about Reddit and some group that goes around spamming other subreddits, that's a different topic than the "punch a Nazi in the face" meme that repeats itself among the Orwellian types who see no problem.

Threatening someone by punching them in the face or social ostracism (which can range from discomfort to job loss) is a restriction of freedom of expression. That today people can talk about that casually while in the same breath saying that they support freedom of expression is deeply disturbing. "You don't HAVE to hand over your money to me right now. But, hey, there might be consequences..." - no one would argue that this coercion and a robbery. But "If you say the wrong thing there might be consequences in your job or life" is somehow getting a free pass.

Re: Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

#746

Post by vxNsr »

dlp211 wrote: post #354
williamgrant wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is a common sentiment there that the only good Democrat is a dead one. A similar sentiment is commonly expressed by far left individuals and groups on Twitter, Facebook and other mediums. "the only good Tory is a dead Tory" has been the popular refrain for decades. It's depressing these sentiments are carelessly amplified and approved by so many. Edit: Apparently this has caused a stir. I encourage others to not…

The difference* of course is that none of those people have real political power, Democrats are not trying to appease them. The far left aren't the force behind a Joe Biden or Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Schumer. Those on r/the_donald are Trump's base, the one's that he tries to appease. *US centric view only, don't know enough about European politics to have an informed opinion.

The fact that Biden still hasn’t picked a VP is pretty good proof that you’re wrong.

Re: Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

#747

Post by el_cujo »

sjm wrote: post #711
el_cujo wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cumtown the podcast is chapo adjacent, /r/cumtown the subreddit was much closer to the The_Donald than chapo with its content.

Were you on the subreddit?

Yes, it got significantly edgier after going private.

Re: Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

#748

Post by mancerayder »

caconym_ wrote: post #740
mancerayder wrote: post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And it's not contradictory to have moral rules in favor of speech and against hate while also allowing the community to punch a nazi in the face for being a nazi. There it is again. Yes, it absolutely is contradictory to proclaim that you support freedom of expression while threatening to punch someone in the face when you disagree with their ideas!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance > Less well known [than other paradoxes Popper discusses] is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with t…

It's tricky. I'm not a fan of Nazism myself, not least because I wouldn't survive very long if they succeeded. Punching them in the face is the least of what I would need to do to survive.

.. but what stops me from calling you a Nazi if I personally don't like you? You can take a few steps away. Someone can say something, and a response can be, "the logic of this argument is Nazism." I've seen this argued (badly). Now are we in scope yet?

And if someone wears a red tie (or a MAGA hat), does that then bring them in that sphere? And if so, if that represents the views of, I don't know, 40% of the population, is it wise to censor that? I mean, is it even practical, morality aside?

Let's add them to the list. OK, we get the red hats. Now, someone says something that support police? OK, good, we found more Nazis. OK, now, someone criticizes feminism ... etc. etc.

The circle of verbal hygiene slowly expands, and it comes for you eventually.

Re: Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

#749

Post by floatingatoll »

Jetrel wrote: post #546
floatingatoll wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they send 'envoys' to other social media sites to argue with and harass those who speak up against them anywhere on the Internet. Think "flash mob" crossed with "sealioning^", and look to Gamergate for being first to that particular line. For example, there's a lot of green accounts posting comments here about where to find their new community. ^ Sealioning: https://wondermark.com/1k62/

That's honestly one of the Big Questions™ about stuff like Mastodon; is how resilient it is against that sort of behaviour. On a lot of levels, it seems to be designed to allow multiple groups to share blacklists, so that if a given target is a bad actor anywhere, as long as other groups trust the group they initially burned, word is allowed to get around and close the door in their face before they even say a word s…

How is Mastodon able to defend against abusive single-message throwaway accounts registered by a distributed swarm of malicious human beings?

My stalker of 20 years has been registering a new account every time they contact me for 20 years, specifically to abuse the “your first message is trusted and delivered” approach, with every social platform they’ve stalked me on. If my stalker has known how to do this for decades, then clearly these forum folks know how to as well.

By my read, Mastodon is vulnerable to this distressing and threatening behavior as long as each account is treated as a throwaway, even if it’s banned as soon as it’s caught. This allows the flash mob of abusers to sign up for a mass of Mastodon accounts, send a single threatening abusive message from each to one recipient, and then throw away the accounts and start over. They would succeed in their targeted harassment goal, while Mastodon would - as it defaults to “allow untrusted third parties to contact anyone” - continue acting as a delivery platform for abuse that cannot be stopped.

If I’ve misunderstood and there is some aspect of Mastodon that protects against anonymous users being treated as innocent long enough to deliver an abusive message, that would be invaluable to know.

Re: Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

#750

Post by blisseyGo »

ppf wrote: post #728
blisseyGo wrote: post #525

From Reddit: https://www.reddithelp.com/en/categories/rules-reporting/acc... > Marginalized or vulnerable groups include, but are not limited to, groups based on their actual and perceived race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, immigration status, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, pregnancy, or disability. These include victims of a major violent event and their families. > While the rule on ha…

Reddit just boarded the one-way express to crazy town. How can that policy possibly be enforced? Even if they do decide on some workable definition of what "majority groups" are, and how to prove which group you are in, I can't figure out what "actual and perceived race" means. So if someone makes an offensive comment to me because they think I am of a certain race, but it turns out I am not, it's still racism?

I am pretty sure when rules are written "vague", it's done that way on purpose so they can interpret it and abuse it in whatever way they like.
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