Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 149 posts

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#131

Post by orbifold »

Nimitz14 wrote: post #113
fit2rule wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your attempt to cast Russias annexation of territory it has had claims on for hundreds of years as a misdeed isn't really effective. There were actual Russian civilians being protected by Russian forces during that process. There was a fully armed nuclear base that was under threat of falling into the wrong hands during the Ukraine uprising (which, incidentally, the rest of the world knows full well was funded by the…

Every single statement you made is wrong.

All of the Ukraine color revolutions were clearly US / CIA / foreign intelligence agency backed (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa). Both the EU, Germany and the US had their favourite political operatives in the fight. Various NGOs including German ones paid protestors daily stipends to continue protesting on Maidan, provided them with food and other assistance.

There is no question that the irregular forces in Ukraine received military equipment from Germany, US and other sources. There is videos documenting that. Part of the anti-russian forces were literal neo-nazis, complete with insignia used during world war 2. The Vice magazine war reporting (Russian Roulette in Ukraine) documents both of these statements.

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#132

Post by eukgoekoko »

gwern wrote: post #127
eukgoekoko wrote: post #36

> by a coterie of former KGB officers, or "siloviki" "Siloviki" are not exactly KGB officers, "silovik" is a name for every security, military or intelligence serviceman which is accurately described in the linked article https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/20/west-p... It's fun to see how Guardian keeps playing Chinese whispers.

If all security, military etc are 'siloviki', then by definition, a "coterie of former KGB officers" is in fact a "coterie of siloviki".

I think you're missing my point. But anyway thank you, it's always nice to get a feedback from a mammal.

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#133

Post by cogman10 »

vic9109 wrote: post #98
NicoJuicy wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't getting punished enough, that's a fact. And currently Europe is subsidizing green energy a lot, so it's a slow process. If i'm not mistaking, Ukrain is becoming more and more anti-Russia.

I’m always confused when I see people cheering for sanctioning other nations. Is it pleasant to know that people are suffering, having done nothing wrong? I think it’s a global issue. Pretty sure almost everyone has had these thoughts when reading a news article about some wrongdoing of a foreign government and thought “why don’t we just nuke those Reds?”, “why can’t we just come and take over the North Korea”, “that…

Do you have an alternative to sanctions? I agree they aren't particularly effective, but they seem to be the "kindest" of actions you can take against an oppressive government that might lead to a civilian uprising.

History is rife with examples of failures to stop oppressive regimes. Hell, look at North Korea. We fought a war, we've tried sanctions, we've tried lifting sanctions. Sure, they are propped up by China, but what else could be done to improve the lives of civilians there?

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#134

Post by vic9109 »

NicoJuicy wrote: post #129
vic9109 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m always confused when I see people cheering for sanctioning other nations. Is it pleasant to know that people are suffering, having done nothing wrong? I think it’s a global issue. Pretty sure almost everyone has had these thoughts when reading a news article about some wrongdoing of a foreign government and thought “why don’t we just nuke those Reds?”, “why can’t we just come and take over the North Korea”, “that…

Nuking is unrelated to the discussion. I will never promote an actual war. Russia is meddling in foreign affairs, invading Ukraine, uselessly threatening Europe, trying to spread misinformation and killing other people in foreign countries ( London, Germany, ... ) Even now, Russia is trying to influence/take-over Ukrains news agency. This is not about conspiracy theories, these are plain facts. And for this, Russia d…

Russia is not the only country under the US sanctions. It always ends the same way — the government is largely unaffected, the people die in poverty. Sometimes they die because of the lack of medical equipment. It’s hard for them to leave because other countries are not eager to welcome them.

It’s not war, but there end up being millions of casualties. Understandably, a country values its interests above the lives of foreigners. It all looks like a world-scale trolley problem.

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#135

Post by vic9109 »

cogman10 wrote: post #133
vic9109 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m always confused when I see people cheering for sanctioning other nations. Is it pleasant to know that people are suffering, having done nothing wrong? I think it’s a global issue. Pretty sure almost everyone has had these thoughts when reading a news article about some wrongdoing of a foreign government and thought “why don’t we just nuke those Reds?”, “why can’t we just come and take over the North Korea”, “that…

Do you have an alternative to sanctions? I agree they aren't particularly effective, but they seem to be the "kindest" of actions you can take against an oppressive government that might lead to a civilian uprising. History is rife with examples of failures to stop oppressive regimes. Hell, look at North Korea. We fought a war, we've tried sanctions, we've tried lifting sanctions. Sure, they are propped up by China,…

I have no solution to that. The thing that consistently makes me sad is when people attribute the decisions of a government to all its citizens. There are 7b people on this planet, at least 2 of them cannot influence their governments in a meaningful way.

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#136

Post by lostmsu »

vic9109 wrote: post #134
NicoJuicy wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuking is unrelated to the discussion. I will never promote an actual war. Russia is meddling in foreign affairs, invading Ukraine, uselessly threatening Europe, trying to spread misinformation and killing other people in foreign countries ( London, Germany, ... ) Even now, Russia is trying to influence/take-over Ukrains news agency. This is not about conspiracy theories, these are plain facts. And for this, Russia d…

Russia is not the only country under the US sanctions. It always ends the same way — the government is largely unaffected, the people die in poverty. Sometimes they die because of the lack of medical equipment. It’s hard for them to leave because other countries are not eager to welcome them. It’s not war, but there end up being millions of casualties. Understandably, a country values its interests above the lives of…

What alternatives do you suggest? Ultimately people are responsible for their own government's actions.

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#137

Post by koheripbal »

danjac wrote: post #97
shusson wrote: post #92

There's an irony that a western country, Germany, moved Lenin to Russia in 1917, which was a significant factor in the revolution that followed.

Germany was not really a democracy in 1917. It was nominally a constitutional monarchy under the Kaiser, with a very limited parliamentary system elected by male sufferage that could pass budgets but little else. By the end of the war - before the Kaiser abdicated - it was pretty much a defacto military dictatorship run by the General Staff.

An elected parliament that controls the budget is actually a very core part of democracy. Power flows from budgets.

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#138

Post by fit2rule »

orbifold wrote: post #131
Nimitz14 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single statement you made is wrong.

All of the Ukraine color revolutions were clearly US / CIA / foreign intelligence agency backed ( https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa ). Both the EU, Germany and the US had their favourite political operatives in the fight. Various NGOs including German ones paid protestors daily stipends to continue protesting on Maidan, provided them with food and other assistance. There is no question that th…

Americans very shrewdly avoid the fact that their state was supporting literal neo-Nazi's in Ukraine. It seems they are caught in a caldron of misinformation and simply do not care for the truth, as long as it distracts the world from the other things America is doing, as a nation, around the world.

(Yemen.)

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#139

Post by NicoJuicy »

vic9109 wrote: post #134
NicoJuicy wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuking is unrelated to the discussion. I will never promote an actual war. Russia is meddling in foreign affairs, invading Ukraine, uselessly threatening Europe, trying to spread misinformation and killing other people in foreign countries ( London, Germany, ... ) Even now, Russia is trying to influence/take-over Ukrains news agency. This is not about conspiracy theories, these are plain facts. And for this, Russia d…

Russia is not the only country under the US sanctions. It always ends the same way — the government is largely unaffected, the people die in poverty. Sometimes they die because of the lack of medical equipment. It’s hard for them to leave because other countries are not eager to welcome them. It’s not war, but there end up being millions of casualties. Understandably, a country values its interests above the lives of…

Putin has more protests than ever.

We'll see how that pans out, but I hope that they come back and the world trade table.

As an adult this time :)

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#140

Post by simonh »

jgaa wrote: post #96
simonh wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your point with respect to the US, there's a very corporatist oligarchic tendency on the right, but I really don't see that in Europe at all. Europe has gone to great lengths to stand up to corporations, and that includes many European conservatives of which I count myself one. There's a much broader acceptance among moderate European conservatives that regulation is essential to well functioning market economi…

Read the book. Pay attention to how russian money flow into London, the English elite and the conservative party there. Putin got at least one of his people /very/ close to Boris Johnson. Europe may pretend to have principles, something USA seems to have given up upon, but in the end, - for a huge part of the ruling class - it's all about the money.

Oh I’m sure there are plenty of people in the west who would like it to be all about the money, Trump for example looks at the corrupt oligarchic system in Russia and sees huge commercial opportunities, it’s right up his street. The trouble is the Russians keep insist on playing their stupid Cold War spy, assassination and destabilisation games mucking things up.
Post reply on HN