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India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

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Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#311

Post by giancarlostoro »

akshaybhalotia wrote: post #103
saltedonion wrote: post #42

India is absolutely right in banning TikTok as it is a significant national securities threat. As long as the platforms recommendation and ranking algos are a black box, there is no guarantee that China isn’t conducting misinformation campaigns via the platform. At the very least, the government should audit the algos and make sure China can’t arbitrarily alter ranking results.

Very interesting. I would like to know more about this thought. Is the problem, let's say, with: - the country of origin, so if this was the exact same app from US it would have been less harmful, or, - the amount of time people spend on it, so if people spent time on something like facebook it would have been less harmful?

The amount of data they harvest off the app is scary, but I wish we'd be just as strict with Google over it. It's like the industry is slowly moving towards limiting these things, or making this type of spying much more covert as new things become exposed like the clipboard thing that TikTok does on iOS I can only imagine it's just as bad on Android, to the point where it should be a permission on a per app basis.

Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#312

Post by ianleeclark »

stickfigure wrote: post #282
ianleeclark wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reality is that Chinese firms and government operates together intimately No, I get this, but here's the thing: YouTube and, more specifically, it's advertisers do everything that you're accusing China of. There are material consequences if YouTube doesn't keep in line. What this means is that a status quo that pleases advertisers will be maintained. It's every bit propaganda as dropping leaflets, but you can't…

These are not even remotely equivalent things. Advertisers are not a homogeneous block. YouTube et al can afford to piss off some advertisers; if they're pissing off all advertisers, the material is probably extremely objectionable to most humans. I challenge you to point out an example of content that has been banned from youtube because it offends advertisers, that you really think the banning of which is a signifi…

> YouTube et al can afford to piss off some advertisers; if they're pissing off all advertisers, the material is probably extremely objectionable to most humans.

You don't have to have consensus from advertisers to ban something. If an advertiser of significant enough size, or a block doing similar, threatens, YouTube will listen.

> I challenge you to point out an example of content that has been banned from youtube because it offends advertisers, that you really think the banning of which is a significant issue.

You don't have to ban it, you just have to demonetize it and content creators will fall in line.

> Whereas there is a long litany of material banned from Chinese networks for obvious political reasons.

I really think you need to reckon with this. You speak a lot about hosting your own shit, but, as American hegemony crumbles, your consumption will meet road blocks.

Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#313

Post by swatkat »

puranjay wrote: post #296
kumarvvr wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Especially in South America. However, US is not about expansionism. Its about trade and control. It wants markets, trade and resources. China is about expansionism and lacks moral or ethical compass.

> However, US is not about expansionism I love how the world paints China as an aggressive power while conveniently forgetting the completely unjustified and unwarranted invasion of Iraq by America. From a neutral POV, China has only 'invaded' some islands. America has toppled governments and literally occupied sovereign nations - all under the guise of "national security". And it all happened in the distant past of…

>> From a neutral POV, China has only 'invaded' some islands.

You should read about China's antics in African countries.

https://qz.com/on/china-in-africa/

Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#314

Post by kortilla »

pphysch wrote: post #293
mda wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it though? At least you can see different sides, different voices.

And that is usually enough to placate Westerners. Even if, say, the "different sides" are just different heads of the same snake, which is often the case. The only two political parties in the US, for instance, differ remarkably little in terms of foreign policy and labor rights. Headlines in major US media will virtually never indicate there is any significant room for debate here. The public is satisfied with the f…

Yet youtube is filled with Marxist and socialist material. Major news networks talked about UBI during the Democrat primaries. We’re talking about what information is available in the US, not which policies have a chance in the current popular opinion.

Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#315

Post by stickfigure »

ra7 wrote: post #221
azinman2 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s about allies versus active enemies. There are shootouts on a regular basis between India and China, and they’ve intensified recently.

> There are shootouts on a regular basis between India and China, and they’ve intensified recently. There are no "shootouts". There are standoffs sometimes (think once a year if you want to define regularity) due to the loosely demarcated Line of Actual Control (LAC) between India and China. It's usually a melee. Even the recent escalated incident wasn't a shootout. There are agreements between Indian and Chinese gov…

I agree that "shootouts" is the wrong word, but "melee" doesn't quite capture the gruesomeness of human beings beating each other to death with spiked clubs.

Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#316

Post by ianleeclark »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #246
ianleeclark wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reality is that Chinese firms and government operates together intimately No, I get this, but here's the thing: YouTube and, more specifically, it's advertisers do everything that you're accusing China of. There are material consequences if YouTube doesn't keep in line. What this means is that a status quo that pleases advertisers will be maintained. It's every bit propaganda as dropping leaflets, but you can't…

While private corporations also have incentives and private individuals bring their own biases into play, there remain extremely important differences between the capabilities of corporations and states. State actors can effectuate arrests within their own territory, deploy military assets, make territorial claims, conduct assassinations, and generally use their information-gathering and influence to support signific…

> State actors can effectuate arrests within their own territory, deploy military assets, make territorial claims, conduct assassinations, and generally use their information-gathering and influence to support significantly more violent goals.

Coca cola sent death squads into South America.

> That's not nearly as worrying as being influenced to hating racial minorities in an attempt to distract from the South China Sea or something.

I don't know if you've noticed, but there are currently protests going on in America over racist injustice.

> It's just that the worst that happens from being influenced by it is it that you live a more boring life and consume more product

And how do you think this interacts with the above point?

Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#317

Post by Udik »

ciarannolan wrote: post #206
blackoil wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

International Partnerships are not based on values or Democracy/*cracy. China moved to market based economy earlier then India and being an autocratic country the move was swift and efficient. US wanted to befriend China against Russia in 70s/80s. India started late and kept struggling internally because of the democratic values. If values were such important, Saudis wouldn't have been your best buddies.

>[not all] International Partnerships are not based on values or Democracy/*cracy FTFY. Think about the "special relationship" among the UK/US that is (definitely was) primarily based on values. The Saudis are a pragmatic ally, not a values-based one. Both exist.

> Think about the "special relationship" among the UK/US that is (definitely was) primarily based on values.

Which values? Atheism? The welfare state? Well defined social classes? The royal family?

Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#318

Post by ianleeclark »

reaperducer wrote: post #295
ianleeclark wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reality is that Chinese firms and government operates together intimately No, I get this, but here's the thing: YouTube and, more specifically, it's advertisers do everything that you're accusing China of. There are material consequences if YouTube doesn't keep in line. What this means is that a status quo that pleases advertisers will be maintained. It's every bit propaganda as dropping leaflets, but you can't…

YouTube and, more specifically, it's advertisers do everything that you're accusing China of YouTube and its advertisers aren't countries, and aren't engaged in recent, deadly military skirmishes with India.

> YouTube and its advertisers aren't countries, and aren't engaged in recent, deadly military skirmishes with India.

It might help to read the parent posts I was replying to, but we're talking about the effects of black box algorithms.

Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#319

Post by secabeen »

pphysch wrote: post #293
mda wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it though? At least you can see different sides, different voices.

And that is usually enough to placate Westerners. Even if, say, the "different sides" are just different heads of the same snake, which is often the case. The only two political parties in the US, for instance, differ remarkably little in terms of foreign policy and labor rights. Headlines in major US media will virtually never indicate there is any significant room for debate here. The public is satisfied with the f…

> The only two political parties in the US, for instance, differ remarkably little in terms of foreign policy and labor rights.

Before Trump, I would probably have agreed with you, but these days, I don't know how you can say that. Trump has made major breaks with the foreign policy establishment over the past 3 years, and continues to do so (pulling half of our troops out of Germany is a good example of this). On labor rights, the two parties have been far apart for years. The GOP has intentionally and willfully attacked and degraded the National Labor Relations Board, allowing it to lose quorum and be sidelined.

If you broaden the policy proposals to health care, the parties are even further apart, with one party advocating for single-payer state funded health care, and the other advocating for the immediate elimination of subsidized health care for over 10 million people.

There may have be some issues where there is a general consensus between the parties, but there are plenty of very important issues where the parties are far, far apart.

Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#320

Post by dathinab »

ianleeclark wrote: post #57
saltedonion wrote: post #42

India is absolutely right in banning TikTok as it is a significant national securities threat. As long as the platforms recommendation and ranking algos are a black box, there is no guarantee that China isn’t conducting misinformation campaigns via the platform. At the very least, the government should audit the algos and make sure China can’t arbitrarily alter ranking results.

Are YouTube algorithms open? I don't really see a difference here. Nation state vs. private corporation is different on paper, but I don't see why. They're both going to react to material stimuli to increase their standings.

Good point. But YouTube is not controlled by an authoritarian fascist-like government which has a world view in direct opposition to what you could refer handwaveingly as "western" and is currently pushing to become the dominant power in the world.

If you furthermore consider how bad the "western world" (mainly Britten and the East India Company) had treated it in the past, some aspects of the Chinese culture and the current Goverment direction western countries expecting any fair or reasonable treatment once china succeeded to become the worlds dominant power is kinda a sad joke.

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