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Greatest Java apps

blogs.oracle.com

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Re: Greatest Java apps

#71

Post by the_af »

mumblemumble wrote: post #69
the_af wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet people here on HN have told me in recent threads, when discussing Java, that: - Java is not suitable for enterprise software (yes! Some people here actually believe that). - Java is not a good general purpose language (but Minecraft was written in Java. Or even better, the list of very varied apps from this article shows it's indeed a good general purpose language). What these people actually mean is "I don't…

I work in Java every day, and I agree it's been a huge success. But I also don't think it's a good general purpose language. It's absolutely full of warts and gotchas and ergonomic problems and questionable design decisions that even the people who made them have come to regret. But known history tells us that there is very little correlation between a language's success and how well-designed it is. Outside of softwa…

> It's absolutely full of warts and gotchas and ergonomic problems and questionable design decisions that even the people who made them have come to regret.

And which general purpose language isn't?

Re: Greatest Java apps

#72

Post by apta »

mumblemumble wrote: post #69
the_af wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet people here on HN have told me in recent threads, when discussing Java, that: - Java is not suitable for enterprise software (yes! Some people here actually believe that). - Java is not a good general purpose language (but Minecraft was written in Java. Or even better, the list of very varied apps from this article shows it's indeed a good general purpose language). What these people actually mean is "I don't…

I work in Java every day, and I agree it's been a huge success. But I also don't think it's a good general purpose language. It's absolutely full of warts and gotchas and ergonomic problems and questionable design decisions that even the people who made them have come to regret. But known history tells us that there is very little correlation between a language's success and how well-designed it is. Outside of softwa…

> questionable design decisions that even the people who made them have come to regret.

Such as?

Re: Greatest Java apps

#73

Post by wing-_-nuts »

bzb3 wrote: post #70
the_af wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet people here on HN have told me in recent threads, when discussing Java, that: - Java is not suitable for enterprise software (yes! Some people here actually believe that). - Java is not a good general purpose language (but Minecraft was written in Java. Or even better, the list of very varied apps from this article shows it's indeed a good general purpose language). What these people actually mean is "I don't…

The performance of the Java version of Minecraft is so terrible that the entire game had to be rewritten to be played on consoles. Minecraft was not popular because of Java, Minecraft was popular despite Java.

I strongly disagree. A big part of minecraft's popularity is due to it's mods scene, and it's mod scene is so successful because modders could decompile minecraft's classes and build a deep understanding of how minecraft works under the hood.

Re: Greatest Java apps

#74

Post by the_af »

bzb3 wrote: post #70
the_af wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet people here on HN have told me in recent threads, when discussing Java, that: - Java is not suitable for enterprise software (yes! Some people here actually believe that). - Java is not a good general purpose language (but Minecraft was written in Java. Or even better, the list of very varied apps from this article shows it's indeed a good general purpose language). What these people actually mean is "I don't…

The performance of the Java version of Minecraft is so terrible that the entire game had to be rewritten to be played on consoles. Minecraft was not popular because of Java, Minecraft was popular despite Java.

That's highly debatable, not a point of fact.

And the rest of the apps from the article? Are they also successful "despite Java"? At which point are you willing to admit that maybe Java was suitable for general purpose programming? Which amount of evidence would convince you?

Re: Greatest Java apps

#75

Post by bzb3 »

the_af wrote: post #74
bzb3 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The performance of the Java version of Minecraft is so terrible that the entire game had to be rewritten to be played on consoles. Minecraft was not popular because of Java, Minecraft was popular despite Java.

That's highly debatable, not a point of fact. And the rest of the apps from the article? Are they also successful "despite Java"? At which point are you willing to admit that maybe Java was suitable for general purpose programming? Which amount of evidence would convince you?

What's debatable, that the Java version of Minecraft had terrible performance or that the console ports are not written in Java?

About your other question: I only mentioned Minecraft.

Re: Greatest Java apps

#76

Post by nyc640 »

jmartrican wrote: post #10

What are the odds that a language known for its use in boring enterprise software is the language used to create the most popular video game in history (Minecraft). If C++ was a person it would be mad/salty at this fact.

> most popular video game in history

* citation needed

The most popular game by player count is CrossFire [1]. All I see is that Minecraft has the highest unit sales for a video game across all platforms, but Minecraft for consoles and mobile (which make up a majority of sales [2]) are written in C++.

I would argue that Java would have been a limiting factor for Minecraft reaching its current levels of success given the fact that the PC gaming market is relatively small compared to the console and mobile gaming markets, and it would've been nearly impossible to port the Java edition to so many different platforms.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-played_video_game...

[2] https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Bedrock_Edition#Sales

Re: Greatest Java apps

#77

Post by pjmlp »

bzb3 wrote: post #70
the_af wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet people here on HN have told me in recent threads, when discussing Java, that: - Java is not suitable for enterprise software (yes! Some people here actually believe that). - Java is not a good general purpose language (but Minecraft was written in Java. Or even better, the list of very varied apps from this article shows it's indeed a good general purpose language). What these people actually mean is "I don't…

The performance of the Java version of Minecraft is so terrible that the entire game had to be rewritten to be played on consoles. Minecraft was not popular because of Java, Minecraft was popular despite Java.

The game had to be rewritten because Microsoft is a C++ shop and game consoles SDKs don't support Java, and it was definitely easier to port the game to C++ than to create Java AOT compilers for game consoles.

Re: Greatest Java apps

#78

Post by pjmlp »

nyc640 wrote: post #76
jmartrican wrote: post #10

What are the odds that a language known for its use in boring enterprise software is the language used to create the most popular video game in history (Minecraft). If C++ was a person it would be mad/salty at this fact.

> most popular video game in history * citation needed The most popular game by player count is CrossFire [1]. All I see is that Minecraft has the highest unit sales for a video game across all platforms, but Minecraft for consoles and mobile (which make up a majority of sales [2]) are written in C++. I would argue that Java would have been a limiting factor for Minecraft reaching its current levels of success given…

And to this day people keep complaining about the modding capabilities of Bedrock.

Re: Greatest Java apps

#79

Post by pjmlp »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #59
ce4 wrote: post #2

The list generates some mixed feelings - #16 for example, where the inventor/maintainer got driven away by Oracle's acquisition of Sun and forked Jenkins from Hudson.

It's obviously and understandably a bit biased. There are a few omissions: No mention of anything mobile even though there are a few billion phones out there running Android with a huge app ecosystem of Java and Kotlin based stuff. Of course, that's a non Oracle flavor of Java as Sun sort of lost the plot on the J2ME front (another omission). J2ME was of course more successful than applets ever were until Android hap…

I look forward to JetBrains replacing the JVM and its standard library, and GraalVM in the process, given that Kotlin is so good.

Re: Greatest Java apps

#80

Post by pjmlp »

zamalek wrote: post #66
jcfrei wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kernel (Linux) and android runtime (previously dalvik vm) plus some native libraries are C(++). The rest of the stack running in the user space is Java though (with support for native code).

They are slowly moving to Dart, but the lions share is still Java. My guess is that they are trying to get away from the reach of Oracle lawyers.

Tell that to the Android team busy replicating Flutter in Kotlin.
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