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Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

theguardian.com

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Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#101

Post by Tade0 »

roelschroeven wrote: post #46
NicoJuicy wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's utter bullshit and i'll tell you why: Russia has been severly weakened by democratic Europe. They have lost an insane amount of area since the fall of USSR and Europe has never been "closer" to Moscow, their capital. They are now getting punished for actions of last resort. Eg. Invading Ukraine, because otherwise their entire naval fleed would be rendered useless, since it couln't even go out. Russia is weak,…

Are they really getting punished for Ukraine though? My impression is that Europe by and large does almost nothing, partly out of fear of getting cut of from Russian gas. There are some economical sanctions, yes, but do they hurt Russia? More than they hurt Europe's farmers? If there's any punishment, it certainly is not effective. Russia still occupies large parts of Ukraine (even some areas outside of the Crimea).

partly out of fear of getting cut of from Russian gas

This is less of a factor nowadays after the US lifted its self-imposed ban on LNG exports:

https://www.ceep.be/lifting-us-oil-export-ban-lng/

They're still dependent, but so is Russia on those profits. Right after the sanctions started they tried to sell this gas to China, but didn't get a good deal on that.

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#102

Post by fit2rule »

nieve wrote: post #86
fit2rule wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't bother, most of the people with an interest in discussing Russia have not one iota of understanding of the difference between 'invading' a country and 'annexing' it, or they choose to willingly conflate the two since it works against American's interest in this discussion: Russia annexed Crimea. America invaded Iraq.

Well yes, America's "invasion" was a muddle of confused goals & retaliation while Russias "annexation" was conquest. You're quite right that they're different. One does massive incompetent damage while not intending to stay, the other does its damage deliberately with an eye towards the long term health of their newly conquered territory. Russia's imperial ambitions on their western borders aren't exactly new.

Your attempt to cast Russias annexation of territory it has had claims on for hundreds of years as a misdeed isn't really effective. There were actual Russian civilians being protected by Russian forces during that process. There was a fully armed nuclear base that was under threat of falling into the wrong hands during the Ukraine uprising (which, incidentally, the rest of the world knows full well was funded by the CIA).

Iraq lost 5% of its population during the American invasion.

How many Americans were in Iraq, who were under direct threat of violence from a fascist group involved in a coup d'etat?

Russia hasn't reached America's level of evil, destructive, criminal warfare, that is for sure. The claim that America was surgical and careful in its invasion(s) is specious at best, but really just downright evil. Literally millions of people are still suffering from the effects of America's callous invasion.

4 million innocent people have lost their lives under America's war machine. How many Ukraine soldiers did Russia take during the annexation?

Not even comparable levels of magnitude, no matter how finely tuned your moral relativism chops are ..

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#103

Post by fsagx »

shusson wrote: post #92

There's an irony that a western country, Germany, moved Lenin to Russia in 1917, which was a significant factor in the revolution that followed.

How is that ironic?

It was a deliberate strategy to destabilize Russia and undermine their war effort. It worked.

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#104

Post by curation »

pritovido wrote: post #58
toyg wrote: post #39

Putin and his friends do a pretty decent job of running an old-school oligarchy. That's not really the problem, there is nothing groundbreaking in their approach. The problem is that the "Western" bloc (if there ever was such a thing, really) is currently ruled by elites that fundamentally share those values: weak collective institutions, strong private corporations, the bottom line as the final measure of virtue, an…

Putin is hated outside of Russia but is loved in Russia, because he cares about Russian interest first. Russia is the biggest country in the world. Has so many natural resources so has always been coveted by Empires: The French one and the German, now the US and financial elites Empire. It also counterweights US military power, something the US does not tolerate, they need to to destroy it like Roman Empire had to de…

As someone who works in Russia for a few months every year, to say that Putin is loved by Russia is the same as saying Trump is loved by America. Putin has a base.

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#105

Post by lovelyviking »

vic9109 wrote: post #98
NicoJuicy wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't getting punished enough, that's a fact. And currently Europe is subsidizing green energy a lot, so it's a slow process. If i'm not mistaking, Ukrain is becoming more and more anti-Russia.

I’m always confused when I see people cheering for sanctioning other nations. Is it pleasant to know that people are suffering, having done nothing wrong? I think it’s a global issue. Pretty sure almost everyone has had these thoughts when reading a news article about some wrongdoing of a foreign government and thought “why don’t we just nuke those Reds?”, “why can’t we just come and take over the North Korea”, “that…

Would you rather stand nearby and do nothing when Hitler was starting to kill and occupy? Well, Russia is doing exactly the same now. Russia took part of Ukraine, Russia is killing Ukrainians as we speak ... and they plan to do more ... Would you prefer that 'love' attitude toward all kinds of scumbags?

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#106

Post by lovelyviking »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #28
gear54rus wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He might be the most powerful in current soviet union that is CIS. However I fail to see how he can be the most powerful in the world given that USA surpasses russia in both military and economic might (which are pretty much the same thing if you think about it). Russia has no answer to sanctions and those counter-sanctions are just a delusion. USA can make many other countries respect the sanctions due to dollar bei…

Putin is dangerous because he realised that in the Internet age, you can do incredible damage to a country with social media messaging, hacking, and bribery. The US has been using the media like this for decades, but it's always been considered a side game. Russia has made it a primary mode of attack - partly because it's vastly cheaper and more effective than spending extreme sums of money on super-weapons. So we kn…

I do not understand why people downvote you if they are sincere to the truth. You points are correct and what West doesn't realise is that Putin is at war with West civilisation. He acts like it's a war and he thinks in terms of war. People do not realise, because it seems crazy to create war when there is no need for it, but this is exactly why they loose, because Putin uses it for his advantage. I just hope people would wake up and understand how serious threat is.

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#107

Post by lovelyviking »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #68

People seem to think Putin is beholden to oligarchs, when actually he has taken them on and even sent some to jail! We must remember who created the oligarchs in the first place, and the fact that in the West they never seem to be called “oligarchs”

Correct!

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#108

Post by eukgoekoko »

corford wrote: post #73
eukgoekoko wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Russian national sharing most of anti-Putin sentiments I can tell that Guardian tends to provide an oversimplified picture of Russia. Most importantly this very article misses the fact that there were many actors in Russian political theatre at the time when Putin became prime minister. For instance, the article tells nothing about the involvement of oligarch Boris Berezovsky in the coup. But yes, I get your poi…

It's an article about a book that surely will cover that info if you buy and read it.

What if it doesn't? Would I be able to get my money back? Just as I've said, mentioning Sergei Pugachev and not mentioning Boris Berezovsky in one article looks strange. I totally get it why Pugachev is being mentioned: he's been advertising himself ever since leaving Russia. OTOH Berezovsky's dead so books about his influence might not sell well. Fun fact: it's Pugachev's own claim he was the architect of the coup https://www.bbc.com/russian/uk/2015/07/150724_brit_press

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#109

Post by lovelyviking »

TomMarius wrote: post #18
wickerman wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hit the nail right on the head. The underlying rusophobia that has been eaten and digested by the english-speaking world after the cold war never ceases to amaze me, particularly in the face of the global threat that is the american military power. America has military bases outside of their own country all over the world and has a proven track record of interfering in other countries' politics, causing several w…

I am very thankful for all the American bases protecting my formerly Warsaw Pact country from being in the pact again. This is how Russia behaves to us, I think my position is understandable. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/10/russia-opens-c...

Your position is very understandable. I wish Ukraine would be in that position.

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#110

Post by namdnay »

danjac wrote: post #100
namdnay wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's managed to keep sole control of Russia for 20 years, and probably made himself one of the wealthiest people in the world, so he's definitely playing fiddle for a lot of people

At this point he's a prisoner of his own making. Yes he has personal wealth to last generations, but there is no clear path for him to retire and quietly step aside for a younger successor. Even during late Soviet times there was always a slightly fitter and younger General Secretary to take over, but it's unclear how this would happen in modern Russia without a bloody power struggle. A strong leader at this point wo…

Yeah and it's not like he'll be able to keep his wealth once he steps down... he's really in the position of a Mafia boss. There's only one way out
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