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Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

theguardian.com

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Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#31

Post by 082349872349872 »

namdnay wrote: post #22
NicoJuicy wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's utter bullshit and i'll tell you why: Russia has been severly weakened by democratic Europe. They have lost an insane amount of area since the fall of USSR and Europe has never been "closer" to Moscow, their capital. They are now getting punished for actions of last resort. Eg. Invading Ukraine, because otherwise their entire naval fleed would be rendered useless, since it couln't even go out. Russia is weak,…

I don't think he's saying that Russia is the most powerful country in the world, I think he's saying that as an individual person, Putin is more powerful than any other individual person. I guess the main question would be "is Putin with total control of a less powerful country more powerful than the US president with carefully defined control of a more powerful country?"

Total control is arguable, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Russian_constitutional_re... suggests that he may be attempting to circumvent the legislature.

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#32

Post by surewhynat »

TomMarius wrote: post #18
wickerman wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hit the nail right on the head. The underlying rusophobia that has been eaten and digested by the english-speaking world after the cold war never ceases to amaze me, particularly in the face of the global threat that is the american military power. America has military bases outside of their own country all over the world and has a proven track record of interfering in other countries' politics, causing several w…

I am very thankful for all the American bases protecting my formerly Warsaw Pact country from being in the pact again. This is how Russia behaves to us, I think my position is understandable. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/10/russia-opens-c...

Try taking down an American statue right now, and enjoy your mandatory sentence. Enjoy your bases.

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#33

Post by brutt »

namdnay wrote: post #27
NicoJuicy wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm implying on the : "he plays everyone like a fiddle". The sanctions against Russia are still in place and it seems to be working. It will only get worse when Trump will ( probably) lose. Their ally is China and they are the weak partner on that end and China knows it. Additionally, Russia is probably getting an extra "big reward" in the coming year for their meldding in the western world.

He's managed to keep sole control of Russia for 20 years, and probably made himself one of the wealthiest people in the world, so he's definitely playing fiddle for a lot of people

Putin had plan to make himself and his friends richest people in the world. According to this plan, Gazprom must be valuated at $1T at the end of 2016[0].

[0]: https://politua.org/ekonomika/30270-gazprom-ostanavlivaemyj/

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#34

Post by toyg »

roenxi wrote: post #11
maharajatever wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bit that you miss is that the people who had the misfortune to live in the Russian "sphere of influence" did not want, and will never want to be in it. The former Russian "spheres of influence" are very happy to be out of it, and terrified by the prospect of finding themselves drawn into it.

I am the first person to criticise the Russian sphere of influence. They did a terrible job from the rise of the proletariat through to today. Even I could do a better job if left to administer the country. However to call them aggressors is a total perversion of the word aggression. Their posture is backs-to-the-wall defensive in relation to Western powers.

> They did a terrible job from the rise of the proletariat

They did a terrible job even before that, with "The Great Game" and all that. In fact, it was so bad even their own people had had enough.

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#35

Post by dgellow »

roenxi wrote: post #4

> The revolutions in Georgia and Ukraine of 2004-5 fed Putin’s “dark paranoia” that the Kremlin was threatened by a western plot to topple his regime. The Kremlin has subsequently revelled in escalating conflicts with the western powers as a marker of Russia’s newly regained stature on the world stage. The US has spent a generation pushing first the Soviets, then Russia, back into a very tightly confined sphere of in…

Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014. I don’t know what else you want them to do to be considered aggressors.

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#36

Post by eukgoekoko »

> by a coterie of former KGB officers, or "siloviki"

"Siloviki" are not exactly KGB officers, "silovik" is a name for every security, military or intelligence serviceman which is accurately described in the linked article https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/20/west-p...

It's fun to see how Guardian keeps playing Chinese whispers.

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#37

Post by throwaway8941 »

truth_be_told wrote: post #30

Russia has been more sinned against than sinning. Gorbachev was lied to and manipulated with assurances of a "Marshall -like plan" to get him to dissolve the Soviet Union. During the Yeltsin years the West literally had advisors dictating every aspect of the Political, Economic and Monetary recovery plans in the newly formed countries. Belarus, Ukraine and Kazakhstan were persuaded to give up their nukes in exchange…

I live in Kazakhstan. We are irrelevant to the world because we have very weak economy and terrible, all-pervading corruption, not because we don't have nukes. If we had them, they would probably have been sold to some terrorist groups out there already.

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#38

Post by trabant00 »

Nothing I would call "groundbreaking", but I do salute the warning about Russia's money and influence being happily accepted by the west right now. As somebody who grew up in communist eastern europe I fear this russian strategy apparent success.

A completely corrupt regime which puts incredibly little value on human rights is agitating people in the west with accounts of (comparatively ) minor incidents and imperfections in western systems and institutions. This includes a lot of things from anti EU sentiments to racial tensions. And it's working if you ask me.

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#39

Post by toyg »

Putin and his friends do a pretty decent job of running an old-school oligarchy. That's not really the problem, there is nothing groundbreaking in their approach.

The problem is that the "Western" bloc (if there ever was such a thing, really) is currently ruled by elites that fundamentally share those values: weak collective institutions, strong private corporations, the bottom line as the final measure of virtue, and exploitation of the weak as socially acceptable. That means "we" end up fundamentally unable to oppose putinism on a principle basis, let alone in practice.

That's how we end up with what the study reports: Western interests fundamentally welcome Putin's money and influence on a systemic level. "We" now run the world on gangster capitalism, and Putin is fairly good at playing that game. In fact, we will see more and more Putin-like figures appearing as time goes on.

Unless we significantly change the game, Putin will keep winning.

Re: Putin's People – a groundbreaking study that follows the money

#40

Post by w_t_payne »

toyg wrote: post #39

Putin and his friends do a pretty decent job of running an old-school oligarchy. That's not really the problem, there is nothing groundbreaking in their approach. The problem is that the "Western" bloc (if there ever was such a thing, really) is currently ruled by elites that fundamentally share those values: weak collective institutions, strong private corporations, the bottom line as the final measure of virtue, an…

That's a very interesting perspective. I shall have to ponder on that for a while.
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