Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired' • Hacker News Board

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#71

Post by komali2 » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

octaveguin wrote: post #33

joshribakoff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I try really hard to ignore color One thing I was taught in anti-bias trainings at big tech companies was that trying to "ignore" color helps perpetuate biases. It is important that if an under represented co-worker speaks up, you pay extra attention, explicitly ensure their idea is credited to them, be vocal when you agree even if you otherwise would not, help others to understand their contributions, etc. Biases…

Isn't that horribly patronizing? I'd feel offended if someone treated me with kid gloves based on my skin color.

Try asking some POC friends or colleagues! Get their perspective.

Another user mentioned that it feels like kneeling on the ground and using "baby talk." That's not what's being said here. It's simply taking a moment to observe yourself and other colleagues potentially engaging in unconscious (or even conscious - you may have an avowed racist hiding it very well on the team!) bias.

This is being an ally. It's not patronizing. The reality is that systemic racism against POC in America is real. Ignoring that only aids the status quo.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#72

Post by Klinky » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

RhysU wrote: post #52

joshribakoff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I try really hard to ignore color One thing I was taught in anti-bias trainings at big tech companies was that trying to "ignore" color helps perpetuate biases. It is important that if an under represented co-worker speaks up, you pay extra attention, explicitly ensure their idea is credited to them, be vocal when you agree even if you otherwise would not, help others to understand their contributions, etc. Biases…

The behavior you prescribe is itself a bias. Can we please treat individuals as individuals instead of narrowly viewing others through whatever lenses we carry?

This sounds kind of like "all workers matter", which ignores the current and historical challenges gender/race minorities have experienced in certain fields of work. If you are the majority it can be very easy to be blind to the plight of the minority. "I see a black man or a woman got hired, so things must be fine."

I don't think there is harm in making extra effort to ensure inclusion of minorities within the group, at least for the time being while we try to find better balance, and we see fewer reports of minorities being overlooked, outcasts or underpayed.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#73

Post by Schweigi » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

andreygrehov wrote: post #22

cal5k wrote: post #3

This is a bit of an aside, but... What I think is getting obscured in all of the overheated rhetoric about race is the fact that all humans want a tribe. We want to feel like we belong to something greater than ourselves. I'm Canadian, but I can imagine if I were to move to France to learn French it would be similar. Many people would be welcoming, but some might be impatient with my shitty French and say/do rude thi…

Here is an interesting observation. If we take a look at how different nations are distributed across big cities, we can see that many neighborhoods are race specific. A lot of cities have chinese, jewish, russian, mexican, etc. neighborhoods, meaning that people _naturally_ want to live with _similar_ people. What's more important, it happens organically. It's not like some organization or government forces people t…

I think making this clustering about race is too simplistic. Its about language, religion, food, values, culture.

People like to be in familiar environments. Especially after moving to another country. Because of that its natural to end up with clusters of people sharing something in common even when there was no outside pressure.

I’m now lived in three countries for a longer period of time and its interesting to feel this connection with people from back home even though you never met them before.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#74

Post by dafoex » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #12

This seems like such a hard problem to really solve, since so much of what we consider racism, or at least borderline racism, has a significant basis in fundamental human thinking. I really feel for the guy, but it's hard to know where to start. I try really hard to ignore color, but I'm not immune to at least noticing . Then I try hard not to double-take. It's completely expected to meet Indians at the workplace, bu…

For the longest time I felt like I didn't notice race: yeah, if I looked it was there, and the town I grew up in and live in is pretty multicultural, so it wasn't a novel thing to see people of different colours. Sadly, as I've become more aware of the bitter division of race present in some people, I feel that I've not only become acutely aware of the races around me as if its something strange and unexpected, but I actually feel like I've become somewhat more prejudiced because of it.

As a real life example from the pandemic, everyone is "social distancing" or whatever your local term is. So, went out shopping, needed to get something off a shelf that someone was stood by, asked them to move and they barely scoot back at all. If this was a white guy I'd say "its two metres, not two inches, please move back more" but because this guy was a different shade of brown to me my mind goes "I can't challenge that person because if I do they'll erupt in a cloud of 'that's racist' and I don't want to make a scene" so I just have to bend around them to get the thing off of the shelf and put us both at risk of catching an indiscriminate virus off of each other all because I'm going against everything I thought was right and treating another person differently because of the colour of their skin.

It feels bad because as someone that wants to treat everyone nicely, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells so as to not accidentally oppress someone. Why can't I just ask someone to observe social distancing and it not be a racist thing? Am I going crazy or does anyone else feel this way? Am I alone in this feeling? Am I becoming racist purely because I try so damn hard to not be racist?

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#75

Post by numpad0 » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 5:12 PM UTC

catalogia wrote: post #20

dx87 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are tribal about anything they identify with, whether it's their race, local sports team, country of birth, etc. It's not okay to be racist, but it's also not something you can legislate away. You may as well try to outlaw getting angry at people, it'll be just as effective.

Anger is a choice, at least to a limited extent. Managing ones emotions is a skill that can be honed with practice, if you're willing to make the effort. I don't say this to nitpick your point. I just think it's worth saying since some people may not realize they have a choice.

Calling out normal people for terrible choices they make is just bragging your own ethics seen from your own standpoint

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#76

Post by komali2 » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

zosima wrote: post #59

davidgay wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> _naturally_ want to live with _similar_ people You are forgetting that those kinds of neighborhoods have developed in part because other people have taken mild-to-extreme steps to prevent "those" people from living with them. Known steps in the US include at the very least: - rules preventing "those" people from living in some places - mild-to-extreme actions against "those" people when they move in - people leavin…

So all of these groups choose to live in separate neighborhoods, because they all are racist to each other? Not because they want to be around people that are similar to themselves? And the fact that the same pattern shows up basically everywhere. In Africa, Asia, Europe, North America and to some extent South America, does not change your perception?

> So all of these groups choose to live in separate neighborhoods, because they all are racist to each other?

No, because the empowered class artificially created ghettos, and either forced racial separation directly or indirectly by removing access to societal resources, forcing communities to form to compensate. Of course Cuban refugees will form Spanish speaking communities in a hostile Florida - everything is in English (which they're still learning), many local whites don't want them there and sometimes make that very apparent, and the community is already filled with people with the same background that "made it work," so can offer useful advice and resources.

This doesn't change anything about diversity bringing power, when one can overcome societal biases and racism.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#77

Post by melfix » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 5:15 PM UTC

atdt wrote: post #55

This isn't going to be a popular sentiment here, but I think Ibrahim's experiences shows why diversity training is important. It's 2020; there is no reason for things like this happen: > I've been to job interviews where the receptionist will take me to a whiteboard room. When the interviewer comes in, he'd say: "I'm sorry, you must be in the wrong room." > I often get: "I couldn't tell where you are from on the phon…

I think one of the problems with public discourse right now is that we're failing to separate a number of important topics. This problem—the cumulative effect of racial attitudes on the lived experience of black people—deserves to be considered on its own, but is often conflated with police reform and the activity of explicitly racist groups. I think you're right that the best tool to combat this problem specifically is awareness.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#78

Post by komali2 » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #34

cal5k wrote: post #3

This is a bit of an aside, but... What I think is getting obscured in all of the overheated rhetoric about race is the fact that all humans want a tribe. We want to feel like we belong to something greater than ourselves. I'm Canadian, but I can imagine if I were to move to France to learn French it would be similar. Many people would be welcoming, but some might be impatient with my shitty French and say/do rude thi…

I feel like we were doing fairly well moving towards a single 'human tribe' for the first part of my life, and that 'Racist' was such a powerful label because it was tantamount to putting the human tribe secondary to some sub-group. I'm not sure how or why, but it feels as though a large swathe of the intellectual class betrayed the project by changing the definition of racism from something an individual did, and co…

> to something one could be guilty of merely by benefiting from when someone else betrayed the human tribe.

You may not be aware but this is a common alt-right strawman argument opposed to Black Lives Matter. The idea that all white people are vulnerable of being accused of racism simply because of their privilege. It's incorrect, and a strawman of the actual position, which is that silence aids the status quo.

"There comes a time when silence is betrayal."

""First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;"

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#79

Post by numpad0 » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #71

octaveguin wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that horribly patronizing? I'd feel offended if someone treated me with kid gloves based on my skin color.

Try asking some POC friends or colleagues! Get their perspective. Another user mentioned that it feels like kneeling on the ground and using "baby talk." That's not what's being said here. It's simply taking a moment to observe yourself and other colleagues potentially engaging in unconscious (or even conscious - you may have an avowed racist hiding it very well on the team!) bias. This is being an ally. It's not pat…

> POC

It’s not like “white” people aren’t colored

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#80

Post by dafoex » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 5:26 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #70

hombre_fatal wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, that only works if you have trouble treating people equally otherwise which is quite the character trait. That advice goes back to this idea that white people are born with the original sin of racism. I find it incredibly patronizing to actively pursue "okay, black guy is talking, let me me play everything up a little bit!" Yikes. Reminds me of kneeling to talk to a child in a baby voice when they're crying that…

> white people are born with the original sin of racism. No, it doesn't, but this is generally speaking a perfect encapsulation of the "all lives matter" perspective, which is morally incorrect, usually not because of raw KKK level hatred or racism but instead simple ignorance of what unconscious bias and racism is really like for POC in America. > I find it incredibly patronizing to actively pursue "okay, black guy…

This is great and all, but as someone who's been patronised in this way for being the autistic kid, I'd rather you just treat me like a human being. I've learned my coping strategies, I don't need you to cope for me.