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The CDC lost control of the coronavirus pandemic, then the agency disappeared

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Re: The CDC lost control of the coronavirus pandemic, then the agency disappeared

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US is filling the role of the Roman Empire Yeah, and look how that ended. In fact, its entirely apt cautionary tale because due to taxes and an ever increasing cost of living in Rome proper citizen-soldiers (during the Republic) often went bankrupt and fell into destitute while fighting campaigns from Rome's conquest and returned to see the oligarchy take their fields/land and displaced them further and further…

> Are you seriously suggesting that if the US empire scaled back its efforts in those regions then we'd return to the dark ages? No, we’d probably return to the era of world wars. > Because when I was in Europe Somali pirates were hi-jacking oil tankers and the US didn't intervene, it took the European companies and military to put an end to that entirely by themselves without the need of US involvement. What? https:…

> No, we’d probably return to the era of world wars.

As opposed to the constant and just as deadly porxy wars fought in placed like Georgia, India, Hong Kong, Syria, Yemen, Somlaia, Tunsia, Libya, Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan... That seems like a World War situation to me in that it spans 2 or more continents and some conflicts/occupations have lasted longer than the World wars combined.

> > In the late 2000s, anti-piracy coalition known as Combined Task Force 150, including 33 different nations, established a Maritime Security Patrol Area in the Gulf of Aden. By 2010, these patrols were paying off, with a steady drop in the number of incidents.

The existence of a collation and the presence of the US doesn't invalidate my statement, seeing as how most of these hijacking were happening in the Mediterranean Sea the EU Naval Force had a vested interest in protecting its shores and the influx of refugees coming in from Northern Africa was also happening simultaneously so a joint effort only make sense. But here are a list of hijackings and see how many of them bein released were a result of US involvement, its not as many you are making out to be [1].

> That will mean war.

Why, because you say it does? We are seeing the massive revamping of Civil Rights and the systemic Police Brutality in the US without a Civil war after the protests, why can't that amount of civility exist in this process? Riots did occur, but as the blueleaks is revealing a lot of it was external criminal enterprises taking advantage of the situation to foment unrest for its own ends.

As did looting from opportunistic people, but I heard it best when someone said 'Those were the people who otherwise cannot participate in Consumerist Society, that is afforded to everyone else.'

Jura, a canton with strong Anarchist Intellectual History on top of its reputation for perfecting the art of superior Rolex watch making while the rest of the World was in the midst of World War, separated from Bern/Switzerland for a period of time with nothing more than a simple vote.

Jura was technically its own Nation for a while and no blood was shed. California gained Independence and declared itself a Republic (hence the flag) in the Bear Flag Revolution of 1846 without bloodshed. Many former Soviet Satellites nations gained independence after the USSR dissolved without having to take up arms, as did Slovenia after the collapse of Yugoslavia--by contrast Croatia and Serbia went to war and ruined their economies and have created deep wounds in their society as a result that and are still felt to this day, where as Slovenia is a member of the core EU member nations, which has many negative implications but the point stands.

> Within a single country, government serves the purpose of providing a monopoly on the legitimate use of force.

Agreed, which is why the State is inherently an evil institution, one we've been warned by the creators of the US who detested War and Empire and put in certain vanguards to ensure it didn't occur. And exercising these in the modern World will now make you an extremist, terrorist and Enemy of the State.

> This monopoly is an impediment for the otherwise random violence people would live under. Internationally, the same is true for superpowers.

You base your (flawed) argument on the basis that Humanity cannot conduct itself without abject violence and wanton barbarism, when in reality those predictable outcomes are a direct byproduct of Imperial decree: importing slaves from Africa and generational disfranchisement, isolating conquered aboriginal People into small, remotely located and undeserved areas of the US (reservations) and expecting them to have any opportunities all while promoting things that lead to vice and violence (gambling and alcohol are huge problems in Native People) as their only way to succeed.

I will go on record so say that I'm not an apologist for these things, its sad, but I didn't do it and to be fair my startup's parent company had Native American outreach programs to help them grow hemp on reservation land for subsidized costs in seed, so I don't have what is often regarded as 'white guilt' as my family was also exploited when they came to the US as did just about every race/creed that came in search of a better Life in the New World. Its just what happened.

I argue that because of the abundance afforded to us by automation and technology we can already start from a much better position and can make this a more inclusive system, that does not limit based on fictional borders or race and instead can see and find value that is inherit in all of Human Capital. Its an incentive and distribution issue, not one of scarcity. We can already feed the entire World many times over with the food produced now. That was thought to be unfathomable when the Nation-State model was created, so why are we still using this archaic framework to model our Society?

Taiwan and the UK just opened up its borders to Hong Kong refugees, and Taiwan has made a form of UBI available to those that decide to come as they value the highly skilled labour that comes from HK, whereas the UK is limiting it to BN passport holders born before the handover in 97. And still, Ivan Ko a property tycoon, is thinking about settling a new Hong Kong in Ireland [2]. The World is shifting and I'm super excited to see it happening as it seems they will have to compete for its citizens.

The Nation-State model is being challenged before your very eyes if you want to pay attention to it, I'm saying its best to embrace it and benefit from the disruption rather than go to war to try and needlessly try to keep pretend it can remain intact in the 21st Century.

Its not like this notion is anything new, it was just limited to the rich and powerful: Venice, London, Vatican, Monaco, Gibraltar, Macau etc...

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships_attacked_by_Soma...

2: https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/property-tycoon-ey...

Re: The CDC lost control of the coronavirus pandemic, then the agency disappeared

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US is filling the role of the Roman Empire Yeah, and look how that ended. In fact, its entirely apt cautionary tale because due to taxes and an ever increasing cost of living in Rome proper citizen-soldiers (during the Republic) often went bankrupt and fell into destitute while fighting campaigns from Rome's conquest and returned to see the oligarchy take their fields/land and displaced them further and further…

If the above, abridged history of Rome interests you, check out the podcast The History of Rome by Mike Duncan.

> If the above, abridged history of Rome interests you, check out the podcast The History of Rome by Mike Duncan.

Thanks, I'll check it out. I don't have any apple products, so don't have an account on the Apple Store but I saw he has a youtube channel.

Re: The CDC lost control of the coronavirus pandemic, then the agency disappeared

#163
post #39

"Believing people without symptoms didn't spread the virus, the agency limited testing, discouraged masking..." This is false by Fauci's own account (see below interview) in which he states mask wearing was discouraged in order to secure availability for health workers. This is no small distinction as it raises questions about the importance of public trust/credibility during a health crisis. https://m.youtube.com/wa…

There are a minimal number of excess deaths now associated with COVID, so what is the problem? Allowing the community to acquire immunity naturally during Summer is a good way to minimise the spread of the virus come Winter. COVID severity seems heavily linked with Vitamin D levels, so lockdown during Summer would possibly have been counter-productive for the general population. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/cov…

Most of the rest of the world made at least some attempt to fight the virus. For them, the peak was weeks ago.

The first COVID-19 case in the US was in January. The US government has failed to mount any sort of coherent response.

Now 130,000 are dead, mostly avoidably.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/19/faster-response-prevente...

The virus is growing unchecked in 44 states.

Yesterday, Florida reported a record 9,585 new cases. It's not even 3PM in Florida and they have already reported a record 10,682 new cases today.

This terrible disregard for science is going to kill hundreds of thousands of Americans unnecessarily. Please reconsider your stance.

Re: The CDC lost control of the coronavirus pandemic, then the agency disappeared

#164
post #76

I did some work with the CDC in 2014. They were organised and sensible and fantastic to work with, especially in comparison to local equivalents here in Australia. It's shocking to see how badly they failed.

What might have happened to them since 2014, I wonder?

And what are the other agencies like now? I don't even want to think about it.

Re: The CDC lost control of the coronavirus pandemic, then the agency disappeared

#165

One of my pet peeves is the way nobody in the Government is caring about safety on air travel. I had to fly recently and someone near me was using a CPAP. Study after study shows that CPAP aerosolizes and spreads virus particles much more rapidly than normal respiration. Various Government agencies warn about this. - https://www.cdcr.ca.gov/covid19/wp-content/uploads/sites/197... - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar…

Americans with Disabilities Act may require the airlines to permit CPAP users to travel with the machine. It’s a tough call, but I don’t think “CPAP users are grounded indefinitely” is a fair and equitable position.

Where did "indefinitely" come from? That's a rather big jump, isn't it?

It's the middle of a pandemic! Surely this is not the time to have a big germ-spraying machine in the middle of an airplane?

CPAP users can wait until after the epidemic has stabilized to travel. I mean, everyone should avoid travelling.

Given that the last two days in a row had record new cases and that three states today already had record numbers by midday, I'm... disconcerted at the lack of urgency that seems to be so common.

Re: The CDC lost control of the coronavirus pandemic, then the agency disappeared

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a minimal number of excess deaths now associated with COVID, so what is the problem? Allowing the community to acquire immunity naturally during Summer is a good way to minimise the spread of the virus come Winter. COVID severity seems heavily linked with Vitamin D levels, so lockdown during Summer would possibly have been counter-productive for the general population. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/cov…

> There are a minimal number of excess deaths now associated with COVID, so what is the problem? I don't usually use such language on HN, but this is absolutely delusional. Covid19 has killed more people in 6 months, with lockdowns, than Malaria did all of last year. More than a third of those deaths are in the US. How can you possibly in good conscience claim this is even remotely comparable to the Flu?

You're using ambiguous language, and you didn't at all refute the parent's argument.

If sars-cov-2 actually turns out to have overall IFR of around a quarter of a percent, then it most certainly is comparable to seasonal flu. I personally think that's unlikely, as most reputable estimates have continued to converge on the 0.5-1% range. But even that is "comparable" in the true sense of the word, in that reasonable and fruitful comparisons can be made between the two. Which is exactly what epidemiologists do for a living.

I rather think it's your comparison that's delusional. Two-thirds of of the people killed by malaria are children. Millions more children are afflicted with symptoms severe enough to lead to long-term health problems. Malaria literally robs countries of their future. And malaria's transmission is a much harder problem to solve, because we're fighting a resilient, ubiquitous, nearly invisible vector that can spread the disease miles from the nearest infected person.

To be sure sars-cov-2 is worser and scarier than seasonal flu in every way, but the hysteria isn't helpful.

You didn't even bother to try to refute the parent's assertion that more limited but better targeted restriction might work just as well with less economic damage. This is an area of active, legitimate debate.

Re: The CDC lost control of the coronavirus pandemic, then the agency disappeared

#167
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDK the US that well, but if you don't have coercitive power over politicians what can you do. I'm aware that CDC has been criticized for other stuff as well, but in the end they seem to not have that much power. In my country (Spain) it has been a shitshow. Everyone who warned about the upcoming situation was ridiculed and/or insulted in a coordinated effort between government and media. Now the same people is being…

> IDK the US that well If I can offer a piece of advice in that direction, it is to remember that the US is in fact a union of 50 states, and those states actually have a fair amount of power. The federal government, as powerful as it appears to be, really does lack authority in many areas. While they could absolutely have done a 1000% better job leading the response to the coronavirus, it was always going to fall mo…

And yet America managed two world wars just fine.

Speaking from the Netherlands, it seems clear that about 40% of Americans lost their marbles in this grand collective paranoid fantasy starting around Nixon, growing through Reagan, and then really taking off around the end of the W. Bush administration.

They started to believe these terrible and terribly false things about their fellow citizens, about science, about pretty well everything.

And they purchase hundreds of millions of weapons.

I can't see how it will possibly end well.

Re: The CDC lost control of the coronavirus pandemic, then the agency disappeared

#168
The CDC is an executive agency and therefore under the ultimate control of the presidency. There is no way that this was not orchestrated from the top by an ignorant president. This isn't stupidity. It's malice. Even if the CDC wanted to do better, they can't. They can't provide messaging or testing or anything against the wishes of the white house. Want to force everyone to wear masks? Can't because it'll embarrass the president. What is the point of even having such an institution when all of its actions can be overridden by a mad man determined to only advance his selfish agenda, an agenda that clearly does not include dealing with this virus in any way? The failure of the CDC has been catastrophic, but there's no way things would have turned out this way had they had free reign to implement proper policies based on science.

Re: The CDC lost control of the coronavirus pandemic, then the agency disappeared

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, one needs to take into account Black Budgets - as they are totally opaque and we have no idea what amount of the budget they consume, assuming they are even accounted for in the 700 billion dollar number the budget claims to be.

The same is true for China and Russia.

Ooohhh hey again, we havent comment threaded in like five years... how are you doing.

Re: The CDC lost control of the coronavirus pandemic, then the agency disappeared

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans with Disabilities Act may require the airlines to permit CPAP users to travel with the machine. It’s a tough call, but I don’t think “CPAP users are grounded indefinitely” is a fair and equitable position.

Where did "indefinitely" come from? That's a rather big jump, isn't it? It's the middle of a pandemic! Surely this is not the time to have a big germ-spraying machine in the middle of an airplane? CPAP users can wait until after the epidemic has stabilized to travel. I mean, everyone should avoid travelling. Given that the last two days in a row had record new cases and that three states today already had record numb…

Given that it's the literal definition and common usage of “indefinitely” (without fixed or specified limit, not precise or exact), I don't think it's a big jump at all.
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