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Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

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Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#31
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are tribal about anything they identify with, whether it's their race, local sports team, country of birth, etc. It's not okay to be racist, but it's also not something you can legislate away. You may as well try to outlaw getting angry at people, it'll be just as effective.

Anger is a choice, at least to a limited extent. Managing ones emotions is a skill that can be honed with practice, if you're willing to make the effort. I don't say this to nitpick your point. I just think it's worth saying since some people may not realize they have a choice.

Managing one's emotions is a choice, experiencing them in the first place is not.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#32

This seems like such a hard problem to really solve, since so much of what we consider racism, or at least borderline racism, has a significant basis in fundamental human thinking. I really feel for the guy, but it's hard to know where to start. I try really hard to ignore color, but I'm not immune to at least noticing . Then I try hard not to double-take. It's completely expected to meet Indians at the workplace, bu…

Thank you . That was a very honest reply . As someone who is brown and worked for over a decade in Oregon - I used to be similar to the first guy in my 20s . I was laidback , felt in touch with the local culture and was easy to work with. All of that was great until I gained experience and did not get promotions and saw my white co-workers keep getting promoted to lead and managerial positions . This was despite me being more qualified and having excellent performance reviews. When I brought it up with my manager and I was shortly laid off.

Now I am more like your second guy - I am older and a little wary. I know I am being judged especially if management and coworkers are overwhelmingly white - which is very common in Oregon . I am more careful , wary and precise about how I am at work - which makes others and someone like you less comfortable. It’s anecdotal but this is where the rest of us come from .

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#33

This seems like such a hard problem to really solve, since so much of what we consider racism, or at least borderline racism, has a significant basis in fundamental human thinking. I really feel for the guy, but it's hard to know where to start. I try really hard to ignore color, but I'm not immune to at least noticing . Then I try hard not to double-take. It's completely expected to meet Indians at the workplace, bu…

> I try really hard to ignore color One thing I was taught in anti-bias trainings at big tech companies was that trying to "ignore" color helps perpetuate biases. It is important that if an under represented co-worker speaks up, you pay extra attention, explicitly ensure their idea is credited to them, be vocal when you agree even if you otherwise would not, help others to understand their contributions, etc. Biases…

Isn't that horribly patronizing?

I'd feel offended if someone treated me with kid gloves based on my skin color.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#34
post #3

This is a bit of an aside, but... What I think is getting obscured in all of the overheated rhetoric about race is the fact that all humans want a tribe. We want to feel like we belong to something greater than ourselves. I'm Canadian, but I can imagine if I were to move to France to learn French it would be similar. Many people would be welcoming, but some might be impatient with my shitty French and say/do rude thi…

I feel like we were doing fairly well moving towards a single 'human tribe' for the first part of my life, and that 'Racist' was such a powerful label because it was tantamount to putting the human tribe secondary to some sub-group.

I'm not sure how or why, but it feels as though a large swathe of the intellectual class betrayed the project by changing the definition of racism from something an individual did, and could thereby be considered a traitor to the 'human' tribe, to something one could be guilty of merely by benefiting from when someone else betrayed the human tribe. If one person is a racist, everyone he favours is also guilty of racism under the new definition. No tribe could hold together under such conditions.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#35

This seems like such a hard problem to really solve, since so much of what we consider racism, or at least borderline racism, has a significant basis in fundamental human thinking. I really feel for the guy, but it's hard to know where to start. I try really hard to ignore color, but I'm not immune to at least noticing . Then I try hard not to double-take. It's completely expected to meet Indians at the workplace, bu…

> I try really hard to ignore color One thing I was taught in anti-bias trainings at big tech companies was that trying to "ignore" color helps perpetuate biases. It is important that if an under represented co-worker speaks up, you pay extra attention, explicitly ensure their idea is credited to them, be vocal when you agree even if you otherwise would not, help others to understand their contributions, etc. Biases…

I agree that this is implausible within our lifetimes, but I hope one day it will be possible. There are all sorts of other physical characteristics we mostly ignore by default, and with enough time I'm hopeful we can one day live in a world where the mental biases associated with race will disappear too.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#36

The author hits on something really important. Many people who entered the field 10+ years ago are people who had computers as children. If you’re 30+ right now, that means your family had some means, because computers were very expensive up until pretty recently. Hopefully we’ll see the pipe really getting wide now, and many more people from many different backgrounds entering this excellent field.

Nope.

My parents were refugees and arrived in this country with just the clothes on their backs. They worked factory jobs their entire life and never made much more than minimum wage.

I scraped and saved to buy my first computer and teach myself about the internet. We were never given anything from anyone.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#37
post #3

This is a bit of an aside, but... What I think is getting obscured in all of the overheated rhetoric about race is the fact that all humans want a tribe. We want to feel like we belong to something greater than ourselves. I'm Canadian, but I can imagine if I were to move to France to learn French it would be similar. Many people would be welcoming, but some might be impatient with my shitty French and say/do rude thi…

I feel like we were doing fairly well moving towards a single 'human tribe' for the first part of my life, and that 'Racist' was such a powerful label because it was tantamount to putting the human tribe secondary to some sub-group. I'm not sure how or why, but it feels as though a large swathe of the intellectual class betrayed the project by changing the definition of racism from something an individual did, and co…

Well-said. That's why I believe it will lead to a backlash if left unchecked. History suggests that forcing people to suddenly view themselves in stark racial terms is a recipe for disaster.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#38
Not to be harsh but the only evidence he actually gives is: there weren't many other black developers...which isn't surprising given how few black people study CS.

Like getting offended when someone says: "I couldn't tell where you are from"...is odd. I get that...and I am white, I just have an accent that is dissimilar to the place where I live (I am from "here" but people think I am not...everytime I go into this shop, literally everytime, the guy asks me if I am on holiday...I don't think I know that he is a xenophobe because he asks me that). If you come from Guinea...yes, people are going to ask questions and say stuff about that.

A lot of it sounds like hypotheticals...him saying, if you are black then this will happen...which is a really negative way of thinking (it is like saying if you are fat, you will get abused in the street...maybe it will happen but that stuff happens to non-fat people too, and saying that being fat is the reason kind of disguises that).

Also, I think most people have experience of being the "only" something at their workplace. You will work some places and have nothing in common with anyone...it happens.

Irregardless of the above, I struggle to see what could be different for some people not to have a problem. Some people have a very unrealistic interpretation of how other people live their lives. Everyone always has more friends, more luck, more money, their boss is nicer, the air they breathe is cleaner, etc.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#39
I have frequently heard stories like these but find them odd. Perhaps these are scenarios that occur more frequently at smaller companies. Most of my professional corporate experience has been at large companies. As an example people of Indian and Middle East decent make up less than 1% of the US population but if I had to guess the percentage of my developer coworkers from Indian or Middle East decent it would be at least 40%.

At larger companies like I have been at there are all kinds of foreign accents and nobody makes a thing of it. Nobody tries to guess where people are from. I only discovered one of my coworkers is of Kuwaiti decent after disclosing that I am temporarily relocating to Kuwait (I thought was Greek but was not curious enough to bring it up).

Honestly I don’t think I would want to work at place that allowed such exclusive habits about my coworkers which make these stories all the more strange to me.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#40
post #3

This is a bit of an aside, but... What I think is getting obscured in all of the overheated rhetoric about race is the fact that all humans want a tribe. We want to feel like we belong to something greater than ourselves. I'm Canadian, but I can imagine if I were to move to France to learn French it would be similar. Many people would be welcoming, but some might be impatient with my shitty French and say/do rude thi…

I think you have a point, but I think your point is about out-group exclusion more than in-group affiliation. Otherwise we'd just affiliate with "humankind."

Your feeling of obligation to learn French, I think, is about not wanting to be seen as an outsider, not wanting to be judged for your poor command of the language, etc., more than the positive aspect of fitting in. They're two sides of the same coin, yes, but it determines a bit where you end. You don't have to be immersed in French culture to avoid funny looks at stores, but you do have to be able to order food without people noticing anything strange. And you're not affiliating with the expats because you inherently want to define yourself as one, but because they won't judge you.

And so I think responding to the truth of human desire for affiliation by saying "Everyone needs an out-group" is bound to end poorly. Historically, the expansion of certain in-groups (e.g., "white" in the US encompassing the Irish, Italians, and for the most part light-skinned Jews, Arabs, etc.) has been tied to more firmly defining an out-group or responding to the presence of a new out-group.

I think we need to figure out how to make people comfortable with not having an out-group.

(And, to the article itself, we very much need people to make a conscious effort to get over their desires for in-groups or distaste for out-groups when making hiring or investment decisions.)

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