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Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

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Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see these two ideas as mutually exclusive. While putting aside our tribal nature seems unlikely, it seems realistic to think we could do something that would let most people stop considering race when deciding which "tribe" someone may belong to. You see this difference as well, which is why you based your example of reasonable tribal behavior on someone's actions/experiences rather than their skin color. It…

So, off the top of my head two other kinds of in-group identity that have worked in the past are nationalism and religion. It seems those ideas aren’t so in favor right now, so how do we construct a sense of belonging that is truly positive?

Humanism sounds pretty good to me...

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#12
This seems like such a hard problem to really solve, since so much of what we consider racism, or at least borderline racism, has a significant basis in fundamental human thinking. I really feel for the guy, but it's hard to know where to start.

I try really hard to ignore color, but I'm not immune to at least noticing. Then I try hard not to double-take. It's completely expected to meet Indians at the workplace, but black people are so rare that it always feels like a surprise. Maybe there's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem in play.

I recall that when I was in the military, I got so used to the racial make-up, which has a lot more representation from black people than my hometown, that it wouldn't register at all. Just another guy. When it really hit home was after I'd been back in Oregon for a few months after I left the service, when I was walking across the college campus and noticed a small group of black students walking towards me. I noticed them, and then I realized that I had just noticed them, as if they were noteworthy. That was the moment I realized how white Oregon [mostly] is. I didn't feel negativity towards them, but I felt uncomfortable that it was something that even came to mind.

In any case, we have two black guys on our team. Both really nice, but very different people. One of them acts like he was raised locally in a wealthy family, he's very laid back and doesn't seem to feel out of place. The other guy is a little older, and if you didn't know better you'd think he was a little hostile. No, he's wary. He acts like he's faced judgement his entire life and he's always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Easy to be comfortable around the first guy, much harder around the second guy. I want to act like it's not even anything to be aware of, but that in itself seems pretty dishonest. People are different, and that's totally okay. Good in fact, since they bring their own unique perspective to the daily problems we are asked to solve.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see these two ideas as mutually exclusive. While putting aside our tribal nature seems unlikely, it seems realistic to think we could do something that would let most people stop considering race when deciding which "tribe" someone may belong to. You see this difference as well, which is why you based your example of reasonable tribal behavior on someone's actions/experiences rather than their skin color. It…

So, off the top of my head two other kinds of in-group identity that have worked in the past are nationalism and religion. It seems those ideas aren’t so in favor right now, so how do we construct a sense of belonging that is truly positive?

I think something that takes a global effort, like space exploration or switching over to renewable energy, would get everyone working towards a common goal.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#14
post #4
post #3

This is a bit of an aside, but... What I think is getting obscured in all of the overheated rhetoric about race is the fact that all humans want a tribe. We want to feel like we belong to something greater than ourselves. I'm Canadian, but I can imagine if I were to move to France to learn French it would be similar. Many people would be welcoming, but some might be impatient with my shitty French and say/do rude thi…

I don't know if this is an ungenerous reading of what you are saying or not but that sounded vaguely like racism is a fact of life and we should just deal with it. Am I misreading you on that? If not, what kind of approaches do you think would be more appropriate?

I think he's saying that discrimination in many forms is often - but not always - a side effect of evolutionary tribal tendencies and that if we don't take that into account when trying to reduce discrimination our efforts won't be successful.

To me that sounds like realistic, if also extremely depressing, point. I'm optimistic though. We've been successfully living in larger and larger cultures throughout history and have overcome this difficulty many times.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#15
Now that I think about it: I’ve met more female programmers than black ones.

And I might have met maybe 2 female programmers, and 0 black programmers.

Weird.

Now imagine being a 50 year old black female programmer and getting hired.

Anyway I’d welcome colleagues of any color and gender.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#16
I have a hard time believing that ppl couldn’t place him by his name alone...

Not saying it should work that way, but his name quiet obviously betrays him as not white.

Also if you wanna claim Syrians or Lebanese ppl are light skinned... the % of Americans who know that is low double digits.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#17
post #3

This is a bit of an aside, but... What I think is getting obscured in all of the overheated rhetoric about race is the fact that all humans want a tribe. We want to feel like we belong to something greater than ourselves. I'm Canadian, but I can imagine if I were to move to France to learn French it would be similar. Many people would be welcoming, but some might be impatient with my shitty French and say/do rude thi…

In Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle a karass describes the sort of tribe people are looking for. Unfortunately melanin content is not a karass, but instead a granfalloon.

"La francophonie" is another granfalloon. But you have hit upon an easy way to distinguish immigrants from expats: immigrants hang out with people who have similar interests, while expats hang out with each other.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#18
post #10
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how racism isn't a personal choice?

People are tribal about anything they identify with, whether it's their race, local sports team, country of birth, etc. It's not okay to be racist, but it's also not something you can legislate away. You may as well try to outlaw getting angry at people, it'll be just as effective.

There may not be laws[1] about getting angry, but there are laws about assault, let alone battery.

[1] here referring to legal code, not social code.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#19
post #3

This is a bit of an aside, but... What I think is getting obscured in all of the overheated rhetoric about race is the fact that all humans want a tribe. We want to feel like we belong to something greater than ourselves. I'm Canadian, but I can imagine if I were to move to France to learn French it would be similar. Many people would be welcoming, but some might be impatient with my shitty French and say/do rude thi…

This is totally irrelevant to the article.

The article is about assumptions people make about a black programmer because he's a programmer and because he's black, and about how disappointingly rare black programmers are.

Why are we not having a discussion about THAT?

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#20
post #10
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how racism isn't a personal choice?

People are tribal about anything they identify with, whether it's their race, local sports team, country of birth, etc. It's not okay to be racist, but it's also not something you can legislate away. You may as well try to outlaw getting angry at people, it'll be just as effective.

Anger is a choice, at least to a limited extent. Managing ones emotions is a skill that can be honed with practice, if you're willing to make the effort.

I don't say this to nitpick your point. I just think it's worth saying since some people may not realize they have a choice.

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