Why vegan junk food may be even worse for your health • Hacker News Board

Re: Why vegan junk food may be even worse for your health

#41

Post by francescopnpn » Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 1:00 PM UTC

Thorentis wrote: post #21

newscracker wrote: post #2

I’m willing to sacrifice some karma on this. What a trash article that selectively picks information (some of it not really true and some of it easily overcome in today’s world). Whatever diet you follow, if you don’t care about what you eat or don’t eat and in which combinations, your health will not be what could be expected for a person of the same profile who cares about what they eat. Processed (also called “jun…

By eating food that is more unhealthy for you in order to save the planet, it means that you have valued the planet's health above your own. I find this to be irrational. I am all for finding the cleanest, most environmentally friendly way of feeding humans. But if the result is less good for human consumption, then I am simply substituting one evil for another, and nobody can take any moral high ground over it.

Prime example of a human thinking he's smart while in reality he has subpar IQ to the point of being cringy. Bookmarked for future reference.

Re: Why vegan junk food may be even worse for your health

#42

Post by crucio » Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 1:02 PM UTC

WoefullyInept wrote: post #30

I personally know several vegans that have had minor health problems because of their diet. You can eat a very healthy diet as a vegan, the problem is most people are not educated or motivated enough to get proper variation in their diet. Its much easier for the general public to eat a varied diet by not restricting themselves to veganism.

Anecdotally I'm the opposite. I personally know dozens of meat eaters who have had major health problems because of their diet.

A varied diet is often promoted because it gives you the most chance of getting the nutrients your body needs, but it fails abysmally when it comes to excluding things your body doesn't need.

If you also start to consider the environmental impact and animal abuse that comes from 'just eat everything', then it becomes very compelling to put a small amount of effort into reducing meat/dairy consumption and aiming towards a whole food plant based lifestyle. Small steps aren't difficult for most people.

Re: Why vegan junk food may be even worse for your health

#43

Post by francescopnpn » Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 1:02 PM UTC

yesenadam wrote: post #7

There seemed something fishy about this article. I looked up the first stat that caught my eye, > One study found that 25% of vegans had very low blood iron levels, compared to 3% of vegetarians and 0% of omnivores. That just sounded like rubbish – although "one study" has found almost everything – so I clicked the link to the paper, Nutrient Intake and Iron Status of Australian Male Vegetarians which turns out to ha…

man that's why I regret every time opening HN or any other news website/aggregator.

Re: Why vegan junk food may be even worse for your health

#44

Post by fennecfoxen » Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 1:04 PM UTC

ianleeclark wrote: post #27

Thorentis wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By eating food that is more unhealthy for you in order to save the planet, it means that you have valued the planet's health above your own. I find this to be irrational. I am all for finding the cleanest, most environmentally friendly way of feeding humans. But if the result is less good for human consumption, then I am simply substituting one evil for another, and nobody can take any moral high ground over it.

> By eating food that is more unhealthy for you in order to save the planet, it means that you have valued the planet's health above your own. It's entirely possible that these products, in conjunction with a vegan diet, are better overall than a meat-eating diet with similar junk foods. The starting point is this: a generally healthier vegan diet vs. a generally less-healthy omnivorous diet. > But if the result is l…

> I really don't think there's a generally applicable moral framework that doesn't require veganism.

You know, it is one thing to say that you believe it is best, and argue for it vigorously. But if you are unable to imagine someone else holding a differing view in an intellectually and morally self-consistent manner, that says a lot more about your thought patterns than it does about the intrinsic validity of a cause.

Re: Why vegan junk food may be even worse for your health

#45

Post by fennecfoxen » Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 1:06 PM UTC

francescopnpn wrote: post #41

Thorentis wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By eating food that is more unhealthy for you in order to save the planet, it means that you have valued the planet's health above your own. I find this to be irrational. I am all for finding the cleanest, most environmentally friendly way of feeding humans. But if the result is less good for human consumption, then I am simply substituting one evil for another, and nobody can take any moral high ground over it.

Prime example of a human thinking he's smart while in reality he has subpar IQ to the point of being cringy. Bookmarked for future reference.

I have downvoted and flagged this comment. I will reiterate several of our guidelines from https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.

When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.

Re: Why vegan junk food may be even worse for your health

#46

Post by lucidguppy » Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 1:06 PM UTC

ggm wrote: post #6

blunte wrote: post #4

Any manufactured food will be less healthy than natural foods. I'm rather suspicious of this article. It smells a bit like a meat industry funded piece. Vegans I know are not trying to replace meat with manufactured substitutes. They eat while foods instead, including spinach and kale, which has a lot of iron.

Did you miss the part where they pointed out vegetable sources are often less bio available and less well absorbed? The article is not funded by the meat industry the BBC is not PBS. The article is talking about a culture where junk food is ubiquitous (the UK) and where vegan junk food is being touted as a healthy alternative.

If you think that the BBC is not affected by the beef/lamb industry in the UK - I have a bridge to sell you.

The British media pushes gastric bypass surgery before pushing plants.

Re: Why vegan junk food may be even worse for your health

#47

Post by crucio » Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 1:22 PM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #44

ianleeclark wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By eating food that is more unhealthy for you in order to save the planet, it means that you have valued the planet's health above your own. It's entirely possible that these products, in conjunction with a vegan diet, are better overall than a meat-eating diet with similar junk foods. The starting point is this: a generally healthier vegan diet vs. a generally less-healthy omnivorous diet. > But if the result is l…

> I really don't think there's a generally applicable moral framework that doesn't require veganism. You know, it is one thing to say that you believe it is best, and argue for it vigorously. But if you are unable to imagine someone else holding a differing view in an intellectually and morally self-consistent manner, that says a lot more about your thought patterns than it does about the intrinsic validity of a caus…

He isn't saying he can't imagine it, I believe he's saying there is no way that one can say they are living a moral lifestyle while still consciously contributing to the destruction of the planet and abuse of animals when it can so easily be avoided by eating different foods.

I understand some people can be naive of the issues or not be in a position to choose their diet.

Re: Why vegan junk food may be even worse for your health

#48

Post by hombre_fatal » Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 1:24 PM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #44

ianleeclark wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By eating food that is more unhealthy for you in order to save the planet, it means that you have valued the planet's health above your own. It's entirely possible that these products, in conjunction with a vegan diet, are better overall than a meat-eating diet with similar junk foods. The starting point is this: a generally healthier vegan diet vs. a generally less-healthy omnivorous diet. > But if the result is l…

> I really don't think there's a generally applicable moral framework that doesn't require veganism. You know, it is one thing to say that you believe it is best, and argue for it vigorously. But if you are unable to imagine someone else holding a differing view in an intellectually and morally self-consistent manner, that says a lot more about your thought patterns than it does about the intrinsic validity of a caus…

It's perfectly reasonable to me that some people consider the morality of veganism as settled as the morality of, say, rape. Especially in a world where the vast majority of us only eat meat because we were born into it and it pleasures us.

Frankly, I think the moral superiority of veganism is obvious to most people and very difficult to argue against. I think a lot of the drama is only the fallout of our difficulty squaring those morals with our culturally-backed, deeply-seated, identity-level behavior and our already existing struggle to control what we eat.

Re: Why vegan junk food may be even worse for your health

#49

Post by ianleeclark » Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 1:34 PM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #44

ianleeclark wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By eating food that is more unhealthy for you in order to save the planet, it means that you have valued the planet's health above your own. It's entirely possible that these products, in conjunction with a vegan diet, are better overall than a meat-eating diet with similar junk foods. The starting point is this: a generally healthier vegan diet vs. a generally less-healthy omnivorous diet. > But if the result is l…

> I really don't think there's a generally applicable moral framework that doesn't require veganism. You know, it is one thing to say that you believe it is best, and argue for it vigorously. But if you are unable to imagine someone else holding a differing view in an intellectually and morally self-consistent manner, that says a lot more about your thought patterns than it does about the intrinsic validity of a caus…

> You know, it is one thing to say that you believe it is best, and argue for it vigorously.

I'm not a vegan. I just think that, if you are trying to live an ethical life, it is the most ethical position.

> But if you are unable to imagine someone else holding a differing view in an intellectually and morally self-consistent manner

I don't know what you mean by "morally self-consistent manner." If you mean moral anti-realism, then, no, I agree with moral realism and choose to side with expert opinion. I don't think morals are subject-dependent.

Re: Why vegan junk food may be even worse for your health

#50

Post by mrob » Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 1:36 PM UTC

Havoc wrote: post #39

mrob wrote: post #10

>Olive oil, on the other hand, is high in high-density lipoproteins (HDL). Lipoproteins are the fat transport mechanism found in animals. Oil olive, like all vegan products, does not contain lipoproteins.

>Lipoproteins Is that a bad thing? Quick google suggests it's associated with inflammation

AFAIK dietary lipoproteins have no nutritional relevance. Lipoproteins in your body are made by your liver to package fats into tiny droplets that can be transported by your blood. The balance of different types of lipoprotein in your blood is associated with different health outcomes, and diet influences the types of lipoproteins produced. Exactly how important any of this is a contentious subject.

The article probably meant to say that olive oil consumption is associated with higher HDL production, which is associated with better health outcomes.