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Neil Gaiman: Why defend freedom of icky speech?

journal.neilgaiman.com

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Re: Neil Gaiman: Why defend freedom of icky speech?

#91
post #83

And in other news, Apple have removed the "Gay Cure" app from their app store. Clearly a stupid, offensive app, but it looks like "icky speech" to me.

And this is exactly why an open device like Android is so much better.

The problem is that what speech is "icky" depends on the person, and if you ban "icky" speech then you'll be banning all sorts of things others do not find icky. Apple has also removed apps that were basically soft-core porn. But for me, a "gay cure" app is far more offensive than a "girls in bikinis" app, but other people clearly feel the exact reverse.

When you reduce the world to speech which no one finds offensive, then you find yourself using Newspeak, in which you can't communicate meaningfully at all because every offensive thought and image has been eliminated.

Re: Neil Gaiman: Why defend freedom of icky speech?

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are very very badly informed about what you're attempting to tar Australia with. The "A cup breasts = child pornography" meme was started when a fringe political party with no seats in either houses of parliament made a press release to that effect, which was picked up by the typically loathe to fact check anything Internet. ( http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/01/29/has-australia-really-ban... ) As for comics, I've n…

I've been doing research, and although I have found blog pieces claiming what you are saying, they also say things like this: "The Australian Classification Board (ACB) has confirmed to Somebody Think Of The Children that a person’s overall appearance is used by the Board to determine whether someone appears to look under the age of 18 in a film or publication. … Asked whether breast size was considered by the Board…

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Re: Neil Gaiman: Why defend freedom of icky speech?

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are very very badly informed about what you're attempting to tar Australia with. The "A cup breasts = child pornography" meme was started when a fringe political party with no seats in either houses of parliament made a press release to that effect, which was picked up by the typically loathe to fact check anything Internet. ( http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/01/29/has-australia-really-ban... ) As for comics, I've n…

I've been doing research, and although I have found blog pieces claiming what you are saying, they also say things like this: "The Australian Classification Board (ACB) has confirmed to Somebody Think Of The Children that a person’s overall appearance is used by the Board to determine whether someone appears to look under the age of 18 in a film or publication. … Asked whether breast size was considered by the Board…

Everything your "research" has turned up is nothing at all. Of course overall appearance including perceived breast size is considered when classifying, but it is certainly not a direct small breasts = child porn situation.

The key concept you seem to be missing here is the "appear to be a minor" concept. If an actress had small breasts, shaved pubic hair and was deliberately made up to appear underage then that is unacceptable under Australian law, if that same small-breasted actress was instead dressed appropriately and made up as an adult, then there would not be a problem.

There is a huge difference between something being refused classification and "all pictures of flat chested women (A cup) are kiddie pron".

As for your comics example: the pictures depicted children, that's why it is classified as child pornography. NOT because "all cartoons are kiddie pron. So if you see a cartoon depiction of two people in their 80s getting it on technically you are considered a sex offender."

"I find your accusations and subsequent downvoting rude and baseless. You may not like the sex party, but they are one of the few organisations in Australian politics devoted to transparency in government (for their particular hot-button issue anyway)."

I gave my first preference to the Sex Party in both the 2009 Higgins By-election and the 2010 federal election - not that I see any reason for you to have brought this up. Your original post was totally and utterly factually incorrect. Your second post is similarly misguided.

Re: Neil Gaiman: Why defend freedom of icky speech?

#94
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it involves, say, a high-ranking general giving loads of top-secret military information to the enemy, it's likely that not giving away such information is part of his job description, and that he is in breach of contract. Now, the law might not like punishing breach of contract with long-term imprisonment (or whatever the penalty for treason is), but you could probably work something out--e.g. if he breaks contra…

The case of shouting "fire" in a crowded theater can be handled similarly: Customers agree not to do that sort of thing as a condition of being allowed into the theater, and if they break that, then they are guilty of trespass. Not that I disagree with your premise, but an issue with this is that people like to see punishment that fits the crime - I'd expect public outrage over a misdemeanor prosecution for an infrac…

Not that I disagree with your premise, but an issue with this is that people like to see punishment that fits the crime - I'd expect public outrage over a misdemeanor prosecution for an infraction that may result in loss of life.

If someone got stomped to death in a stampede triggered by someone's cry of "fire", methinks the person or people who did the stomping would have a lot to answer for. You shouldn't do that even in a real fire. The only difficulty is that it may be hard to identify the culprit(s) if everyone was busy panicking about their own escape routes; and I can see how a mob, with no other targets available, might place all blame on the original "fire"-shouter.

But perhaps this "loss of life" thing is an incidental flourish, and your main point is that people, responding legitimately to a fire alarm (not stomping on people), suffer a lot of inconvenience (they drop whatever they're doing and evacuate), and the "fire"-shouter is responsible for all that and perhaps should pay for it. I agree with that. I don't see a problem with assigning a large punishment to the simple crime of trespass when the trespass has large consequences.

Suppose I gain access to a Toyota plant and press a few buttons or rearrange a few materials in such a way that a batch of several cars comes out ruined. I haven't done anything beyond simple trespassing, but I am responsible for thousands of dollars of property damage, and I can be made to pay for it, right?

So either this is a case where a trespass is a huge crime; or I can be considered responsible for massive property destruction, even though I just pressed some buttons or rearranged stuff (possibly without realizing the implications of my actions), and even though it required the actions of other people in the assembly line to completely carry out the destruction. (In the latter case, what makes me guilty and the others innocent is that I committed a crime--trespass--and they didn't.) These choices seem largely equivalent to me; the former has the drawback that you can no longer hear "trespass" and think "Oh, ah, trespass, a misdemeanor, with maximum punishment X", but perhaps this could be remedied by calling it "trespass causing major property damage". Either way, I think something similar could be made to apply to the case of a false fire alarm.

Those fines are actually due to local ordinances. As such they are an example of government imposition on individual freedom in order to protect the public, and are a bit of a counter-example to your point.

Interesting. I didn't know that. Still, couldn't you call it a form of trespass and still punish it with a fine of approximately that magnitude (see above for further discussion)?

Re: Neil Gaiman: Why defend freedom of icky speech?

#95
post #75

Enjoying lolicon will turn you into child rapist like enjoying FPS turned me into ruthless murder. You have to be biologically screwed in the head to rape children or kill people for pleasure. I don't know why people create an impression that average Joe could enjoy 8 year old kid if given a chance.

I subscribe to the theory that people who assume everyone's a potential child rapist are generalizing from a single example; either someone close to them, or themselves.

[deleted]

Re: Neil Gaiman: Why defend freedom of icky speech?

#96
post #75

Enjoying lolicon will turn you into child rapist like enjoying FPS turned me into ruthless murder. You have to be biologically screwed in the head to rape children or kill people for pleasure. I don't know why people create an impression that average Joe could enjoy 8 year old kid if given a chance.

I subscribe to the theory that people who assume everyone's a potential child rapist are generalizing from a single example; either someone close to them, or themselves.

I hope not because that would imply that way more people is so biologically screwed in the head than I'd like to believe.

I think it's just because children are so precious that people get all irrational and panicked.

Re: Neil Gaiman: Why defend freedom of icky speech?

#97
post #38

Gaiman does a reasonable job with this argument, but in my mind fails to address the most pernicious thought in the letter: The question, for me, is even if we only save ONE child from rape or attempted rape, or even just lots of uncomfortable hugs from Creepy Uncle Dave, is that not worth leaving a couple naked bodies out of a comic? This kind of argument comes up all the time in mostly unsupportable "save the child…

Not really, the premise in this instance is that saving the life of one child is a positive worth more than the negative of many people being threatened by allegations of producing and consuming paedophilic material (some of whom many not be paedophiles). In this instance there's the accompanying assumption that a child's life is worth more than numerous innocent adults' freedom, which you're of course free to argue against - "if MANY adults are deprived of their freedom for something UNCERTAIN TO ACTUALLY WORK".

Obviously these perfectly reasonable rhetorical devices also assume that law is framed in terms of utilitarianism rather than inviolable principles[1], and unlike Gaiman assumes that one can do so because those enforcing the law are capable of using enough discretion to determine whether the sentence does more damages than the alleged crime. Either way, I don't think Gaiman's "they used to ban X and even Y on similar grounds, and look where that got us" is a more sophisticated argument.

[1]I think even people defending "icky" things on the basis of "inviolable" rights or principles have a threshold of "ickiness" where it starts conflicting with other inviolable principles they believe in. Presumably most of those who defend objectionable fantasy on the grounds of freedom of speech and expression don't consider the principle so inviolable it cannot be curtailed it when Creepy Uncle Dave moves into teen chatrooms to freely voice his opinion that teens should freely express themselves on webcam for him

Re: Neil Gaiman: Why defend freedom of icky speech?

#98
post #38

Gaiman does a reasonable job with this argument, but in my mind fails to address the most pernicious thought in the letter: The question, for me, is even if we only save ONE child from rape or attempted rape, or even just lots of uncomfortable hugs from Creepy Uncle Dave, is that not worth leaving a couple naked bodies out of a comic? This kind of argument comes up all the time in mostly unsupportable "save the child…

Indeed. It is of course entirely possible to prevent all crime by locking everyone up in solitary confinement at birth. This would save not just ONE child, but all of them, from rape or attempted rape etc., so surely this must be worth it?

Isn't suicide still illegal in most states?

Re: Neil Gaiman: Why defend freedom of icky speech?

#99
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The case of shouting "fire" in a crowded theater can be handled similarly: Customers agree not to do that sort of thing as a condition of being allowed into the theater, and if they break that, then they are guilty of trespass. Not that I disagree with your premise, but an issue with this is that people like to see punishment that fits the crime - I'd expect public outrage over a misdemeanor prosecution for an infrac…

Not that I disagree with your premise, but an issue with this is that people like to see punishment that fits the crime - I'd expect public outrage over a misdemeanor prosecution for an infraction that may result in loss of life. If someone got stomped to death in a stampede triggered by someone's cry of "fire", methinks the person or people who did the stomping would have a lot to answer for. You shouldn't do that e…

Still, couldn't you call it a form of trespass and still punish it with a fine of approximately that magnitude (see above for further discussion)?

Sure you could get a fine for trespassing, or even imprisonment, but since it's a criminal offense it's at the discretion of the prosecuting jurisdiction rather than the establishment. On the other hand, the trespasser could probably be held civilly liable for damages by the establishment directly.

In fact, going back to the theatre example, I suppose the person who yells fire and causes a stampede could just as well be held liable for injury or wrongful death in a civil suit by the affected individuals, rather than reckless endangerment or manslaughter in a criminal court.

In the end, though, we'd also have to consider the cost and effort involved in individuals conducting civil suits vs. the convenience of having the government handle investigating and prosecuting it as a criminal offense.

Re: Neil Gaiman: Why defend freedom of icky speech?

#100
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The case of shouting "fire" in a crowded theater can be handled similarly: Customers agree not to do that sort of thing as a condition of being allowed into the theater, and if they break that, then they are guilty of trespass. Not that I disagree with your premise, but an issue with this is that people like to see punishment that fits the crime - I'd expect public outrage over a misdemeanor prosecution for an infrac…

Not that I disagree with your premise, but an issue with this is that people like to see punishment that fits the crime - I'd expect public outrage over a misdemeanor prosecution for an infraction that may result in loss of life. If someone got stomped to death in a stampede triggered by someone's cry of "fire", methinks the person or people who did the stomping would have a lot to answer for. You shouldn't do that e…

> Suppose I gain access to a Toyota plant and press a few buttons or rearrange a few materials in such a way that a batch of several cars comes out ruined. I haven't done anything beyond simple trespassing, but I am responsible for thousands of dollars of property damage, and I can be made to pay for it, right?

Vandalism? Sabotage? You've done more than just trespass if you've interfered with anything in such a way as to cause damage (deliberately or otherwise).

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