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Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

reuters.com

431–440 of 643 posts

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#431
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course if the law is bad, the solution isn't to dismantle law enforcement, it's to fix the law.

How do you deal with police forces ignoring policy and performing as they deem fit all while protecting themselves?

I always thought only hiring police officers from the area being policed was a good start.

I don't mean that if you hire someone they have to move into the district. I mean that your pool of hires is the people who have already lived in the district for a particular amount of time (years).

The locals know what laws not to enforce and how to gain the trust of the community.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since racism is systemic[1] > [1] If you don't believe this, you're in the minority now: https://www.vox.com/2020/6/11/21286642/george-floyd-protests... . This part was a little odd. It sounds like you're saying "because this belief is widely held by people, we should treat it as true"? I definitely am in the minority, but I find a much more logically consistent view than the modern definition of systemic racism to…

This struck me as well. Systemic racism means (to me) that if you took the people out of the system, you'd still get biased outcomes based on race. In my view, it's a different matter to say that a system produces biased results because it is designed to do so, rather than it is systemic because the people operating it make biased choices where their discretion is called on. Are there actual, current examples of syst…

> Are there actual, current examples of systemic racism where an entirely non-racist staff would still produce racially-based biased outcomes?

If you removed all racists from the economy, black people as a demographic would still be at a huge disadvantage for a very long time (or forever?). The playing field might not level on it's own.

If a system starts out with biased functions and runs long enough so that the distribution of the state is biased, removing the biased functions doesn't necessarily guarantee the state will return back to an unbiased equilibrium.

Removing explicitly racist laws doesn't remove the biases embedded in the system from two hundred years of slavery and terrorism. There is a complex feedback loop of education, economics, and cultural attitudes that have locked the imbalances in.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#433
post #184

The problem with predictive policing is in the name. Inference (ML) predicts the future from the past. If the past is racist, then inference will create a racist future. Since racism is systemic[1], especially when it comes to policing, predictive policing is actively working against an anti-racist future. There may be statistical ways to factor out systemic racism. There are two reasons I don't think that works: 1.…

I’d just like to point out that the number of people who believe something has zero real bearing on that thing being true. I’m not saying it’s irrelevant in all avenues of study, but in terms of a thing being true, it is indeed irrelevant. So we have to be careful about shaming each other for not following the majority.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This struck me as well. Systemic racism means (to me) that if you took the people out of the system, you'd still get biased outcomes based on race. In my view, it's a different matter to say that a system produces biased results because it is designed to do so, rather than it is systemic because the people operating it make biased choices where their discretion is called on. Are there actual, current examples of syst…

> Are there actual, current examples of systemic racism where an entirely non-racist staff would still produce racially-based biased outcomes? If you removed all racists from the economy, black people as a demographic would still be at a huge disadvantage for a very long time (or forever?). The playing field might not level on it's own. If a system starts out with biased functions and runs long enough so that the dis…

Some kids go to school to raise hell, are you saying we should tolerate it because their skin color indicates some kind of victim status? Doesn't that put the other non-disruptive students (whom share the same skin color) at a disadvantage?

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#436
post #184

The problem with predictive policing is in the name. Inference (ML) predicts the future from the past. If the past is racist, then inference will create a racist future. Since racism is systemic[1], especially when it comes to policing, predictive policing is actively working against an anti-racist future. There may be statistical ways to factor out systemic racism. There are two reasons I don't think that works: 1.…

> [1] If you don't believe this, you're in the minority now: https://www.vox.com/2020/6/11/21286642/george-floyd-protests....

A citation that 1) says I might be in the minority so should believe the citation to be in the majority and 2) references vox.com is hardly credible.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talking with police is interesting. I talked policing with a police officer who had worked in New Zealand, the UK and Australia. These are countries that are relatively close in culture and the differences in policing described by the officer were striking. A lot of this was in relation to what the police role was and how other services cooperated (or didn’t). It would be great to have a description of system differe…

Could you expand on that? I'm really curious about what the differences were.

One starting observation I'd venture is those countries (and Canada) base their policing on Peelian principles, which establish a basis of policing and the relationship with the public. The US police culture had different roots.

Edit: for reference, the list of principles that were issued to each new police officer in London from 1829 onward.

1. The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder

2. The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions

3. Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observance of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public

4. The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force

5. Police seek and preserve public favour not by pandering to public opinion but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law

6. Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient

7. Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence

8. Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary

9. The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it

I find much wisdom there, and as I go down that list I find it hard not to think for each item of counter-anecdotes from the news about US policing in recent years.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they? What are these minor infractions that would get picked up on? Likely drug or gun charges. Most people don't own guns illegal or use illegal drugs. The only common infraction I can think of is speeding, but that's not what these criminals are being picked up for. Cops don't follow a single individual around waiting for them to go 5 over the speed limit.

Are you unaware of the fact that police plant evidence?

It would seem farfetched to suggest that this is a widespread issue. And yet it would seem farfetched to suggest that cops would just kill someone for the fuck of it, and yet here we are.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#439
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes agreed, enforcement has to be standardized as well. Justice should be blind, except to the law. The pendulum swinging though has me worried, where dangerous crimes are currently unenforced.

The knee-jerk reaction against policing will cause more harm than good, all in the name of some nebulous "long term" outcome that is borderline undefinable. Some knee-jerk reactions that we're seeing or considering" 1. Banning facial recognition. 2. Banning predictive policing (this article). 3. Defunding police departments 4. California's ACA5 amendment that seeks to remove anti-discrimination laws, allowing racial…

Hm, I don't see enacting your first three points as being inherently negative. If it's broken, why not try to fix it?

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that, in general, you're going to have biased training data (with a bias that's difficult to measure) and so inherently policing recommendations will be biased. This is particularly problematic when it comes to arrests for crimes that are inherently 'selective' in their enforcement. Eg; drug-related crimes, public intoxication, loitering, trespassing. But the fact is... violent (fatal and nonfatal) crimes do…

If we want to stop neighborhood gang violence in the long term, we need to work on why people join gangs, and what they are fighting over. We can't do that with police, who generally don't come into the situation until after it's too late and things have gone wrong. But if most of our money is going to the police, then what resources are available to do the longer-term work on gangs and neighborhoods? In software dev…

Do we know in any definitive manner why people join gangs?
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