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Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

reuters.com

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Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#321
post #184

The problem with predictive policing is in the name. Inference (ML) predicts the future from the past. If the past is racist, then inference will create a racist future. Since racism is systemic[1], especially when it comes to policing, predictive policing is actively working against an anti-racist future. There may be statistical ways to factor out systemic racism. There are two reasons I don't think that works: 1.…

>The problem with predictive policing is in the name. Inference (ML) predicts the future from the past. If the past is racist, then inference will create a racist future. Since racism is systemic[1], especially when it comes to policing, predictive policing is actively working against an anti-racist future.

One thing that constantly annoys me is that while people are becoming well aware of how racist our legal system is, but are still just as blind as ever to how sexist it is, despite the extent of sexism being greater than the extent of racism (the disparity of justice is greater for gender than for race). This in turn makes any speeches concerning how we need to make the system more just have a bit of a hollow ring to them much in the same way as when you hear a marriage equality speech from someone fighting for equality of interracial marriages while ignoring the discrimination same sex marriages face (granted, that happens far less than I remember 10 to 15 years ago).

For example, you can find many police departments that handle probation have a way to rating the risk level of offenders. People are fine with this system taking into account gender even as they fight to prevent it from using race. I was able to help with testing one such system once, and while the insides were a company secret we weren't allowed to see (which is worth an entire rant on its own), the general pattern was for all else but gender being constant, males received a higher risk rating than females. Very minor or very severe crimes would receive the same ratings but otherwise it seemed pretty clear cut on how it discriminated based on gender.

Even in this specific case, while they have banned some forms of predictive policing, I think it is safe to assume they'll still use other forms such as using gender when assessing the risk level of offenders and then using that risk level to either deny probation/parole or to set the level of probation/parole the offender receives.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you're saying that more police presence is harming people. How? Ask the disproportionate number of Black men in prison. Ask white rapist Brock Turner why a white judge wanted to let off "because he's a good boy", or the Central Park Five or the Georgetown Jacket Three that spent decades in prison because white cops and prosecutors assumed their guilt based on the color of their skin. If my posts sounds aggressiv…

You moved from police presence to sending innocents to prison... That's quite a step. Predictive policing is nothing more than police presence. If police arrests innocents and the justice system sends them to prison that's quite another issue. On the whole I suspect that the number of innocents sent to prison is rather low. There's hysteria alright on 'racial issues' at the moment.

> You moved from police presence to sending innocents to prison... That's quite a step.

How do you think people get arrested? They show up at a police precinct and turn themselves in?

> There's hysteria alright on 'racial issues' at the moment.

Yeah, I'm sure the Civil Rights & Suffrage movements were just "hysteria" too right?

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#323
Does this mean that the cops can’t camp out in a bar’s parking lot at 2am, watching drunks walk to their cars? Seems like they’re predicting that bar parking lots routinely have drunk drivers at 2am....

If a resident gets a drunk driving ticket due to the above strategy, can their conviction get dismissed because cops weren’t patrolling using a Cryptographically secure random number generator?

Please let me know when a lawyer first uses that defense. Always looking for a good laugh.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#324
post #184

The problem with predictive policing is in the name. Inference (ML) predicts the future from the past. If the past is racist, then inference will create a racist future. Since racism is systemic[1], especially when it comes to policing, predictive policing is actively working against an anti-racist future. There may be statistical ways to factor out systemic racism. There are two reasons I don't think that works: 1.…

I agree that, in general, you're going to have biased training data (with a bias that's difficult to measure) and so inherently policing recommendations will be biased. This is particularly problematic when it comes to arrests for crimes that are inherently 'selective' in their enforcement. Eg; drug-related crimes, public intoxication, loitering, trespassing. But the fact is... violent (fatal and nonfatal) crimes do…

Horseshit. Police response to violent incidents in 'problematic' neighborhoods is already extremely slow. The threat of gang violence is not mitigated by police response. The threat of gang violence is mitigated by providing much better options for people who would otherwise join gangs. Police presence is immaterial to the lack of gangs in affluent neighborhoods.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#325
post #184

The problem with predictive policing is in the name. Inference (ML) predicts the future from the past. If the past is racist, then inference will create a racist future. Since racism is systemic[1], especially when it comes to policing, predictive policing is actively working against an anti-racist future. There may be statistical ways to factor out systemic racism. There are two reasons I don't think that works: 1.…

Indeed. And worse they can then become an excuse to hide racist policy inside. Racist governor, buys racist software, to drive racist policing, loved by favored racist constituents, "It's not my administration, it's the software, algorithms are objective, black people are the problem...". Maybe systemic racism is a feature of these systems, not a bug?

Racists abuse plausible deniability and care not for the loss in social trust and cohesion. I really think you are right and I hope one day we might know the truth.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#326
Claims in article are contradictory to the real life use cases of facial recognition tech, see: "The Best Algorithms Struggle to Recognize Black Faces Equally":

https://www.wired.com/story/best-algorithms-struggle-recogni...

In reference to: “Understanding how predictive policing and facial recognition can be disportionately biased against people of color, we officially banned the use of these technologies in the city of Santa Cruz,” Mayor Justin Cummings said on Wednesday.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody commits minor infractions of the law regularly. Putting someone under watch, by a cop who needs to report that he enforced something, is going to ensure they get picked up sooner or later. There's a saying to the effect that a good cop can find a reason to pull any car over if he follows it for just a couple minutes.

Do they? What are these minor infractions that would get picked up on? Likely drug or gun charges. Most people don't own guns illegal or use illegal drugs. The only common infraction I can think of is speeding, but that's not what these criminals are being picked up for. Cops don't follow a single individual around waiting for them to go 5 over the speed limit.

Are you unaware of the fact that police plant evidence?

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We’re talking rape, burglary, murder, vandalism, and assault... Conversely, low-income neighborhoods have tons of hardcore crime like I’ve described. Tons? Rape seems an unnecessarily emotional grab here, since most rapes are perpetrated by someone the victim knows and aren't restricted by income. Vandalism happens everywhere as well. > It’s always the people in the white upper-class neighborhoods who think the pol…

I was more upset that the parent was implying that his neighborhood would have equal arrest numbers if the police had been more present on account of his pot smoking. I hope everyone can see what a stupid argument that is and that’s the hill I’m willing to die on here.

I think maybe you're missing the point? I don't think the parent was implying that there'd be equal arrest numbers.

The difference is that if you send all the cops to the "bad neighborhoods", then the "good neighborhoods" get away with a lot of crime, even if that crime is low-level.

Let's say all neighborhoods have 100 instances of low-level crime per day. A so-called "bad" neighborhood -- where most of the cops get sent to -- also has instances of much worse crime.

The end result of this officer allocation scheme is that people get arrested in the "bad" neighborhood for a mix of low-level crime and worse crime. But pretty much no one at all gets arrested in the "good" neighborhood, because there's basically no police presence there. So maybe you see in the "good" neighborhood a handful of arrests for those 100 instances of low-level crime, but in the "bad" neighborhood you see 60 arrests for that similar crime. (You also see arrests for more severe crime, but that's not the point.)

I'm of course making up numbers here, but regardless of the magnitude of the numbers, even if they differ between neighborhoods, the percentage of crime handled ends up being much lower in the "good" neighborhoods because of the simple fact that police aren't there to handle it. Sure, they'll come out if called, but response time is longer, and they have very little ability to see things happening in real-time.

Meanwhile, if you feed this data into your algorithm, it will start to believe that there's basically no low-level crime in the "good" neighborhoods -- even though it's the same! -- so it prioritizes those neighborhoods even less.

If you feed an algorithm bad data, it will only give you more bad data. And it becomes worse when you act on that data and feed it more results based on that bad data.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#330
post #184

The problem with predictive policing is in the name. Inference (ML) predicts the future from the past. If the past is racist, then inference will create a racist future. Since racism is systemic[1], especially when it comes to policing, predictive policing is actively working against an anti-racist future. There may be statistical ways to factor out systemic racism. There are two reasons I don't think that works: 1.…

Is reality racist or just the data used to describe it? If the latter, I see no issue with your argument. If the former, I think we need be careful about legislating reality ( mostly because it doesn't work ).

What if it is such only because we made it so? For example, policing policies that increase fatherlessness in specific communities will result in increased levels of crime. But to then take a 'fair' approach at distribution of policing policies based on the actual crime data, and then use that to continue to keep the policies that caused the problem to begin with seems a bug that needs to be fixed (though some would point out it was more of a purposefully designed feature).
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