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Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

reuters.com

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Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#171

Post by godelski »

riazrizvi wrote: post #63

> Used by police across the United States for almost a decade, predictive policing relies on algorithms to interpret police records, analyzing arrest or parole data to send officers to target chronic offenders, or identifying places where crime may occur. The promise of the software made in a sales pitch or on the website, is a far cry from the reality of what such software delivers. That's fine when it's business, t…

When we talk about this I think we really need to talk about Blackstone's Ratio [0] which was clearly an influence for the founding fathers. We're talking about peoples' lives and freedom, how highly do you value these?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#172

Post by thereisnospork »

seaish wrote: post #126
Havoc wrote: post #85

>to send officers to target chronic offenders, or identifying places where crime may occur. Those are two very different things in my mind. Targeting individuals is very Minority Report and definitely not cool. Focusing on problematic areas seems like good policing common sense though? A bit like the local nightclub near me has a police car chilling in front of it every Friday night because there are always drunks sl…

They usually use past crime to determine the problematic areas, and this past crime is a source of bias. If there's any sort of racism in the system, problematic areas will turn into areas of specific race. Races and especially income levels aren't spread evenly across Santa Cruz or any city.

If cars are being broken into on a specific block at a rate higher than average for a precinct are you suggesting that it is 'bias' to focus resources onto that block?

Or are you referring to places where formerly charged/convicted persons live/hang out? Here I'd agree, punishment should end at the end of the sentence/fine and people deserve the benefit of the doubt/presumption of non-recidivism.

I'd also posit that many problematic areas are areas of a specific race and caution that a policy of under-policing these areas to avoid appearing racist will be disastrous to public safety and order.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#173

Post by QuotedForTruth »

kortilla wrote: post #131
tehjoker wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice, it's a method of entrenching racist practice. Certain groups are profiled and criminalized, and therefore have criminal records so more police are sent to predicted "hot zones" which results in a feedback loop. What is never said is that crimes are socially determined. Which is more harmful? Shoplifting by a poor person or wage theft by a business owner? Clearly the latter as an actual person who can't a…

Wage theft is treated as a civil issue because it’s not actually “theft” despite its name. It’s not a business taking money away from someone, it’s the business failing to pay money for a contractual obligation. Do you want a failure to pay your plumber to be prosecuted as theft?

It already is. Its called theft of services. Never seen it applied to a conventional employee though, but why shouldn't it be?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft_of_services#:~:text=Thef....

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#174

Post by TallGuyShort »

UnpossibleJim wrote: post #154
riazrizvi wrote: post #63

> Used by police across the United States for almost a decade, predictive policing relies on algorithms to interpret police records, analyzing arrest or parole data to send officers to target chronic offenders, or identifying places where crime may occur. The promise of the software made in a sales pitch or on the website, is a far cry from the reality of what such software delivers. That's fine when it's business, t…

I have no problem with that, but why aren't these types of statistical models and curve analysis being used to deploy drive by patrols? Some of this seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water, does it not? While I agree that it's way too soon for this sort of granularity, is it too soon to have 10 block, increased presence of troubled areas helped by statistical analysis?

If crime being caught by a drive-by patrol is a significant way in which crime is being caught, to me that screams "victimless crimes". I break victimless laws all the time, sometimes with my police officer friends and neighbors present, sometimes on private property miles from any public roads. I never seem to get busted for it. So if 10-block patrols of "troubled areas" really saw an increase in enforcement action, then combined with the fact that America has disproportionately bad imprisonment and recidivism rates, it sounds like you're describing exactly what systemic discrimination is.

You live in a bad neighborhood, so you're more likely to get caught for something, now you're on parole, now anywhere you live is a "bad neighborhood" requiring more patrols, more likely to get caught for something. Meanwhile I can live in my entirely white suburb smoking weed and my life doesn't change.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#175

Post by wongarsu »

godelski wrote: post #161
an_opabinia wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big budget movies sort of struggle against telling stories about justice for people whom we discriminate against contemporaneously. You could never make a movie that even loosely portrays the plight of Uighers, who suffer under a notoriously technology-heavy form of surveillance and oppression (what we are calling predictive policing). Not because of censorship but because no one is going to fund your film. So while…

I think the purpose of movies and stories is to make these events relatable. You're supposed to draw parallels. You don't have to show a black person to convince white people that minorities are being repressed. In fact, it is probably more convincing if on screen you are showing white people being oppressed because then they are going to more identify with that character. Of course, we are supposed to analyze these…

In fact I would argue this is one of the great strengths of SciFi as a genre: you can transport present day problems into a foreign setting, allowing the viewer to engage with the core problem without getting distracted by race or nationality

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#176

Post by Havoc »

ReptileMan wrote: post #130
Havoc wrote: post #85

>to send officers to target chronic offenders, or identifying places where crime may occur. Those are two very different things in my mind. Targeting individuals is very Minority Report and definitely not cool. Focusing on problematic areas seems like good policing common sense though? A bit like the local nightclub near me has a police car chilling in front of it every Friday night because there are always drunks sl…

It is complicated at best. I think that in most jurisdictions seriously planing a crime is a crime in itself. >A bit like the local nightclub near me has a police car chilling in front of it every Friday night because there are always drunks slugging it out. And what happens when said policemen block the entrance of the club and start patting down everyone leaving for pico or weed? A police presence can calm down an…

>what happens when said policemen block the entrance of the club

Why on earth would they do that?

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#177

Post by booboolayla »

phkahler wrote: post #51

One way to preventing such positive feedback (more policing means more crime) may be to use only reported crime or calls to the police when allocating resources to an area.

>More policing means more crime

Sounds like more testing means more people infected

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#178

Post by tehjoker »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #54
tehjoker wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice, it's a method of entrenching racist practice. Certain groups are profiled and criminalized, and therefore have criminal records so more police are sent to predicted "hot zones" which results in a feedback loop. What is never said is that crimes are socially determined. Which is more harmful? Shoplifting by a poor person or wage theft by a business owner? Clearly the latter as an actual person who can't a…

I'm just not sure this makes the point you think it does. There are certainly some who see crime as a morally neutral way to "get one over on the system that impoverishes them", but most people find this to be an abhorrent viewpoint and have no interest in accommodating it.

That's the viewpoint of someone that benefits from the system. Of course it's abhorrent if you think it works as its inimical to the functioning of the system.

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#179

Post by [deleted] »

UnpossibleJim wrote: post #154
riazrizvi wrote: post #63

> Used by police across the United States for almost a decade, predictive policing relies on algorithms to interpret police records, analyzing arrest or parole data to send officers to target chronic offenders, or identifying places where crime may occur. The promise of the software made in a sales pitch or on the website, is a far cry from the reality of what such software delivers. That's fine when it's business, t…

I have no problem with that, but why aren't these types of statistical models and curve analysis being used to deploy drive by patrols? Some of this seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water, does it not? While I agree that it's way too soon for this sort of granularity, is it too soon to have 10 block, increased presence of troubled areas helped by statistical analysis?

[deleted]

Re: Santa Cruz, California bans predictive policing in U.S. first

#180

Post by ska »

UnpossibleJim wrote: post #154
riazrizvi wrote: post #63

> Used by police across the United States for almost a decade, predictive policing relies on algorithms to interpret police records, analyzing arrest or parole data to send officers to target chronic offenders, or identifying places where crime may occur. The promise of the software made in a sales pitch or on the website, is a far cry from the reality of what such software delivers. That's fine when it's business, t…

I have no problem with that, but why aren't these types of statistical models and curve analysis being used to deploy drive by patrols? Some of this seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water, does it not? While I agree that it's way too soon for this sort of granularity, is it too soon to have 10 block, increased presence of troubled areas helped by statistical analysis?

Even assuming the models are good, what confidence do you have that the data is good?
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