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Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

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Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#551
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen anyone personally take offense, or just high-profile cases? I've definitely seen a few of the latter (e.g. Jordan Peterson) but the common denominator there seems to be antagonistically refusing to use pronouns or doing so to make the point that you reject them, which is different from an honest mistake.

Yes, i left Open Source projects because referring to co-contributors is such a minefield. I don't wish to work with self-identified transgender people due to this anymore. They take everything so personal even if its not about them. And just for saying this, same people will accuse me of hating trans people and rejecting their right to exist. But you know what - people with successful HRT who also pass don't exhibit…

> I don't wish to work with self-identified transgender people due to this anymore. They take everything so personal even if its not about them.

> And just for saying this, same people will accuse me of hating trans people and rejecting their right to exist.

I mean, what you posted is a textbook example of transphobia, no matter how light it may be. I've worked with many trans people and have many trans friends, none of them have gotten angry when I've had to ask for their pronouns if I can't remember or need clarification.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These kinds of arguments are prima facie disgusting and deserve no quarter in civilized discourse. Declaring "no quarter" in actual war is saying that if the enemy decides to surrender to you, and lays down his arms, and hoists the white flag, sticks his hands in the air, then you will shoot and kill him. Declaring "no quarter" in actual war is therefore a violation of the Hague convention. It is "especially forbid…

I also found the "no quarter" phrasing interesting by the parent poster. As countless people have found out across history, those who show no mercy will in turn receive no mercy when they need it. If pushback against the intolerant aspects of progressivism is occurring even on HN (of all places!), they may need that mercy sooner than they think.

It's interesting that this is the place you decided to make an argument about 'no mercy'. Because as a rhetorical question for you using the same analogy: What do you think will happen to the police when they show no mercy? Perhaps that might explain why people find the arguments attempting to justify the extrajudicial execution of someone to be disgusting.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#553
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However that's not what you were doing; you were stating the point that being with a group doing x means you will labelled as x. I still say that. If you attend a demonstration organised by a far right group (FLA), heavily promoted by other far right groups (Britain First, EDL), and prominent members of the far right (Stephen Yaxley Lennon, Paul Golding) then you're going to be called racist. You're desperately try…

I haven't said anything about defending these crowds at all, you're welcome to point out where I defended them; I've pointed out the likely frustrations of op about two facedness and lack of nuance in the press. I can perfectly see there are people in the protests making the nazi salutes just fine and I follow the logic behind getting the label if you hang with them, and as you'll surely agree in just the same way th…

> the same way that those involved with the recent floyyd protests will be labelled as opportunistic thugs looking to destroy property and assault people

This is so disengenuous as to veer into the realm of absurdity. You seem to be completely ignoring the actual intent of the two groups in attempt to conflate them to defend your argument. Not to mention both side-ing them is an absolute joke.

The intent of the floyd protests wasn't to loot and destroy property. It was to protest his death. The fact that some took this opportunity to do so does not affect the actual intent which was upheld in many other places and protests.

The intent of the other group was explicitly racist. Organized by far-right groups and quite literal Nazis.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#554
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find it to be controversial that questioning someone's humanity or personhood isn't simply "offensive." I find it very surprising that people chanting anti-Semitic nonsense continue to find acceptance and defenders in the United States. To have a tolerant and open society you need to be intolerant to those who are intolerant. Why is this new or subject to debate?

> To have a tolerant and open society you need to be intolerant to those who are intolerant Do you have any proof of that? From what I can see, the US has been, for the past 200 years, the most tolerant to intolerance, and also (one of) the most tolerant. Weimar Republic (pre-Nazi Germany), had prohibitions on anti-Semitism, yet it didn't help. I'm sure there are also counterexamples, but regardless your claim doesn'…

Is this ignoring that we not only had a Nazi movement back before the war but also the fact that we put Asian Americans into camps, had a long period of treating Irish Americans as 2nd class citizens? This is without going into the big issues of slavery much of which still show signs today in how our police system treats black Americans.

What part of all of that makes us the most tolerant exactly?

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The historical view of transness was that people who are trans wanted to present as the other part of the binary. This is still how trans people think today. And if you are into language details, you'll realize that 'transgender' literally says that - getting across to another gender. Same way like transport meant getting to another harbour. > I'll note that I'm intentionally simplifying here which has the conseque…

> This is still how trans people think today. Some trans people find external validation important, yes. But being trans is not defined by external validation (and certainly not external perception), but instead self perception.[0] This is obvious: it would imply that a man in drag is a trans woman, which is obviously untrue. > If the identity of gender-fluidity can be externally erased by your wording, its perceptio…

> But being trans is not defined by external validation [...]

Did i say so?

My observations and your 'definitions' are different.

> Like I said, I was simplifying, and specifically the simplification erased some identities.

Language is inherently symbolic and thus an simplification (an reduction). This makes "Identity erasure" an very toxic concept - you are guilty of it because there wasn't a way to comply with it in the first place.

> The same person is still trans if they eventually become a passing woman.

Wow. You can't say that - that's really rude and a offense to transitioned people. They are a woman - becoming so was the whole purpose of transitioning. You should know that.

> and it entirely contradicts how the trans people I know define their transness.

If that's so, fine. The trans people i know don't even "define" themselves, because here people aren't obsessed with self-identity as in the US. They only want to be accepted as Women.

> [...] they don't perceive themselves as either strictly a man or a woman. This is where you get various non-binary trans identities.

Only in identity politics. In the outside world you get people that don't conform to various gender expectations, and the majority of them does not need to make up their mind around that being an identity. They "can be".

> Education and normalization does more to protect LGBT people than staying silent.

Yes, but then do it correctly. Identity politics as it is now has resulted in a large number of "shit liberals say"-outrage-memes. People are making fun of self-identifying because it is so absurd - does "I sexually identify as an Apache Attack Helicopter" ring a bell for you? I'm sure you have good intentions for LGBT people, but if you unironically argue with concepts like self-identification or identity erasure, people will be driven off. I'm driven off. Its neither how things work in practice nor how we will get LGBT acceptance in the future.

> "identity politics" (which, to be clear is a phrase I still don't understand the meaning of)

In the US, identity politics is the most vocal view on LGBT issues. Its core feature is the strong emphasis on self-identity and that it must be 'respected'. How the latter happens in detail is subject to being abused as leverage to control other people. Its only a power play if you see through it, and it rejects the normal-ness of LGBT people, segregating people into groups.

Contrast it to the other parts of the LGBT community, where people are like, normal people. And happen to have transitioned or a having partner of the same sex. That's as normal as chewing gum. Nothing 'special' that needs any kind of extra things to be respected. Just personal life choices.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't said anything about defending these crowds at all, you're welcome to point out where I defended them; I've pointed out the likely frustrations of op about two facedness and lack of nuance in the press. I can perfectly see there are people in the protests making the nazi salutes just fine and I follow the logic behind getting the label if you hang with them, and as you'll surely agree in just the same way th…

> the same way that those involved with the recent floyyd protests will be labelled as opportunistic thugs looking to destroy property and assault people This is so disengenuous as to veer into the realm of absurdity. You seem to be completely ignoring the actual intent of the two groups in attempt to conflate them to defend your argument. Not to mention both side-ing them is an absolute joke. The intent of the floyd…

No the intent as described many times in the comment chain was protection of the statues; that was what spurred the counter protest. Both sides began under good intent; both sides had bad actors who caused trouble; both sides get labelled.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#557
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To have a tolerant and open society you need to be intolerant to those who are intolerant Do you have any proof of that? From what I can see, the US has been, for the past 200 years, the most tolerant to intolerance, and also (one of) the most tolerant. Weimar Republic (pre-Nazi Germany), had prohibitions on anti-Semitism, yet it didn't help. I'm sure there are also counterexamples, but regardless your claim doesn'…

Is this ignoring that we not only had a Nazi movement back before the war but also the fact that we put Asian Americans into camps, had a long period of treating Irish Americans as 2nd class citizens? This is without going into the big issues of slavery much of which still show signs today in how our police system treats black Americans. What part of all of that makes us the most tolerant exactly?

Compared to other countries during the same historic periods. E.g. not many other countries went to war to stop slavery. Maybe the UK? Not many.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#558
post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This ignores that the web has birthed a global culture of people where participation in online discussion is the majority of their lives. And they sit around looking to be offended to raise their own social value amonst their online peers. Being offended is about obtaining value and for mobs to obtain power. The two way street of both trying to not offend AND the listener trying to honestly interpret what is being sa…

> Relationship therapists teach couples to use "I" language vs "you" language to express feelings On the other hand, when a statement is made about you ("what you did is wrong") you always have a chance to discuss the facts. When a statement is made about personal feelings ("I feel offended by what you did") no discussion is possible any more: I can counter your interpretation of facts, but I cannot possibly argue ab…

The point is to work towards mutualism. I language assumes you're both interested in moving forward together.

If you're not interested in moving forward together then I or you language doesn't really matter.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#559

I understand that there are a lot of people who are hurting right now, and I empathize with their pain, but how can we share out most wonderful and beautiful ideas with each other or convey important information to the public if we believe there might be serious reprisals against us if we "say the wrong thing". For example, I personally helped work against slavery on the Black Market in the Middle East, and I wanted…

Really the only thing I can say is help as many people as possible. If you talk with 10 people and 4 will hate you for the rest of your life and 6 will actually do something to contribute to the cause then you are still ahead compared to staying silent.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This ignores that the web has birthed a global culture of people where participation in online discussion is the majority of their lives. I'm not ignoring that, I'm describing what I see is an underlying cause. If online discussion tools respected the principle of setting proper expectations for each communication channel, the problem would be much milder, as the problems you describe would be limited to smaller gr…

Rules and expectations are helpful But all the rules in the world can't solve for bad actors - both speakers and listeners. There's a fluidity to human interaction that rigidity of rule sets will never totally compensate for. And too many rules can be counterproductive and be empowering to bad actors who thrive in increasing beaucracies, at the least by making it difficult for everyone else so they look good by compa…

I should know that, I'm a regular Wikipedia editor.

Despite that, for groups where people come from very different origins and cultures, it is better to spell out the expected rules of behaviour to some degree. "No rules" only works when participants are homogeneous enough that all them already know the rules.

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